MIPodcast #180: Revelation (Themes in the Doctrine and Covenants) Featuring Janiece Johnson

Rosalynde Welch: From Brigham Young University’s Maxwell Institute, this is the Maxwell Institute Podcast: Faith Illuminating Scholarship.

I’m Rosalynde Welch, host of the podcast, and today I have for you an interview with Dr. Janiece Johnson. This is the last in a series of seven author interviews with the writers of our new book series, “Themes in the Doctrine and Covenants.” I hope you’ve caught them all, but if not, make sure you listen to all seven. Each one is thought-provoking and uplifting, and they’ll give you a taste of the goodness you’ll find in the books themselves. We’ve loved hearing from readers who have found that this series has revitalized their study of the Doctrine and Covenants this year. One reader of Mason Allred’s book Seeing wrote, “My beloved father was always interested in seeing Jesus in his life. I wish this marvelous book had been available while Dad was alive.” We’d love to hear from more of you about what you’re finding in this series.

I also want to give a shout-out to the beautiful art that graces the covers of these little books. Artist Leslie Graff created each of the gorgeous, colorful botanical paintings of plants and flowers. They perfectly capture the vibrant life that bursts from the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. Whether you're a longtime student of the scriptures or just beginning your journey, this series offers fresh ideas that we (modestly) think will transform how you approach revelation, time, seeing, and other themes that run through this remarkable book of modern scripture. As always, you can learn more about the series on our website, mi.byu.edu, and you can find the books at Deseret Book or on Amazon.

And now on to my interview with Dr. Janiece Johnson. Janiece is a terrific historian who has written about the religious experience of women converts to the Church and about how the earliest Saints understood the Book of Mormon and applied it in their lives. She brings all this historical expertise to her new book, titled simply Revelation. In our conversation she introduces the idea of "revelatory abundance" - her term for the way the Restoration tore open the heavens and showed the world that God has always been speaking. Dr. Johnson encouraged me to throw off what she calls the "tyranny of a burning bosom” and instead open myself to the many different ways that I might experience God communicating with me. My favorite part of the interview is her wisdom for people who might feel that God is silent, that he doesn’t speak to them. How should we cope with revelation deserts in our lives, and what might we learn if we lean into those silences? Join us to find out.

Rosalynde Welch: Janiece Johnson, welcome to the Maxwell Institute podcast.

Janiece Johnson: Thanks, Rosalynde, it's good to be here.

Welch: You have written a terrific book for our Themes in the Doctrine and Covenants series. Yours is titled Revelation. And you start out strong, start out going gangbusters and you dive right into a concept that you call “revelatory abundance.” And you suggest that this is a central idea in the Doctrine and Covenants. So if you would, tell us what you mean by revelatory abundance.

Johnson: The word itself, the Greek apocalypse, really talks about an uncovering or so it could--divine truth can be something that is uncovered, or it could also be concealed and kept from us. We have different ideas about like a manifestation or divine disclosure, lots of different ways that we can think about revelation. And this is something that has been debated for a long time in the history of Christianity, particularly.

But as I see the restoration, and specifically this collection of revelations that we have published in the Doctrine and Covenants, I see this evidence of Joseph Smith's theology of revelatory abundance, that in this time of sola scriptura, and an elevation of God's Word through the Bible,

Welch: Janiece, just quickly define for some of our listeners who may not know, what do you mean by “sola scriptura”?

Johnson: So sola Scriptura, we've just got just scripture that the Bible itself is the highest authority. And this is central. This stems from the teachings of Martin Luther, but it really continues to be developed in Protestantism. this idea that, and some of it, I mean, we could talk about Martin Luther's own experience, but he is not the only one that where this idea stems from.

But the Bible is the highest authority. And this is the idea that Joseph Smith grew up with. America in the 1830s, most people, the Bible is what most people have access to. Most people read, learn to read reading Bible primers. Until industrialization, until the 1850s, most people will have access to a Bible, but maybe not very many other books. The people in America in the 1830s are mostly Protestant, and they are a people of the book. They know their Bibles inside and out. They are a people of scripture.

Welch: Yeah. So not only would they have said the Bible is all we have, but they also may have said the Bible is all we need. We need nothing more than the Bible.

Johnson: Yes, it is entirely sufficient. It is all that we need. So, and Joseph Smith first with this first revelatory injunction of the Book of Mormon or interjection of the Book of Mormon, we have this first bringing new scripture to light. And that is Joseph's first task, I believe, from the Lord.

But his also his first act is bringing new scripture to light and expanding people's notion of sola scriptura. Can there be more scripture? And those who are converted to the Book of Mormon say yes. Now, I would argue, actually, I've been kind of working on this. This is not part of the Revelation book, but I've been thinking about this. There are some who will convert to the Book of Mormon and believe the Book of Mormon is scripture, but never fully convert to, they never fully leave Sola Scriptura behind. That they continue, the Book of Mormon is scripture, and they will use the Book of Mormon to critique, as they use the Bible to critique others, but they will still be very squarely in this camp of sola scriptura.

Welch: Hmm. Interesting.

Johnson: So, they've expanded their idea of what scripture is to include the Book of Mormon, but they have not expanded kind of away from this idea that the scriptural text is the highest authority.

Welch: So something like prophetic revelation or personal revelation would still be sort of outside their worldview. Yeah.

Johnson: Right, exactly. And Joseph, through I think we have modeled in the Book of Mormon text, and then we get Joseph giving us a whole new series of scripture in a very different mode than the Book of Mormon. I think that that's one really interesting that these two books of scripture that both come through Joseph Smith are very different pieces of scripture.

Welch: To sort of expand our repertoire of what scripture, not only is there more scripture, but there's more kinds of scripture.

Johnson: Yeah, in the Book of Mormon, is the narrative is always primary. And, and that and even those earliest readers of the Book of Mormon, they are focused on the narrative, the first edition of the Book of Mormon is really lends to that. And it's in its format. And, but then Joseph gives us this collection of revelations.

Now this is one of the other definitions like the book of Revelation could be, you know, a book of scripture, but also Joseph's the revelations that ultimately will be published as the Doctrine and Covenants. You've got another collection and a very different voice, a very different piece of scripture than in comparison with the Book of Mormon. And so

Again, we're expanding that notion of scripture as revelation. But again, we have not only God directly speaking to Joseph Smith and offering new scripture. So, I think that's very much in an ancient scriptural model that there are prophets that God speaks to, but expanding it beyond what Protestants are going to accept.

And then you also get established within these revelations, and I think building on what we have in the Book of Mormon, the concept or the idea of personal revelation, what we would colloquially call in the church today personal revelation. And so we have scripture and prophets and personal revelation for most Protestants, that's going to be too much. That is like for Martin Luther, that is a gateway to chaos. And so you're going to see people pulling back. And not that what we have through Joseph Smith isn't without checks and balances and tethers on how that revelatory abundance can be received. But through Joseph Smith, think we get these, that revelation is something that multiplies out into an abundance of possibilities.

Welch: Yeah. So “revelatory abundance” is a kind of counterpart to sola scriptura. It's the way you convey what it is that the Restoration is bringing to the kind of Protestant world of its earliest readers--and of course to us today as a global worldwide church--and helping us understand why it's such a challenge for people to accept.

You know, I am, I can sympathize in some ways with those who say, hang on a second, right? I'm not sure I can take this in. Because truly this idea of an expansive field of revelation, a God who wants to speak with us and will speak with us in many different ways--it's not just sort of one teaching among many. It's not just one tenet among many. Your volume is one volume among seven. Article of Faith number nine is one article of faith among 13. But really, revelation is the foundation of all the other tenets that come after, because it's by means of revelation that every other truth, revealed truth is known, right? So really there's a kind of pride of place, a foundational quality to teachings about revelation that really does turn everything else upside down.

And so I can sort of understand the hesitation. It requires you to really rethink how God acts in the world and especially what might be required of you, right? Suddenly you have to look much more broadly about what God wants from you.

Johnson: Exactly. And I think as we look at, so I am always really interested in a lived religion theology. I'm still trying to find the perfect depiction here because I think it's something between kind of a narrative theology and this idea of a lived religion that if it doesn't have application, if we're just talking about abstract ideas that don't affect our lived reality, then there's a disconnect. And as we look at the early saints, and so as I'm approaching this, I wanted to see not just laying out doctrine but also looking at what this looks like in real people's lives.

And so some of that became personal and what it looked like in my life, but also as we look at it in the lives of the saints and how they apply those lessons. I also just kind of functionally, for me, I am always, I want to not only include women's voices, but to prioritize women's voices and to give us a balance of the whole experience of believers and the whole lived experience. And when we have a book that we've got two women, I have to be creative about thinking about, how do we, how is this, do I make this explicit in that this is for everyone, that this revelatory abundance is for everyone? And one of the ways that I've chosen to do that is looking at how this plays out in the lives of believers, women and men and all friends of God.

Welch: Yeah, I found that to be one of the most engaging parts of the book, are these kind of real life historical case studies of what it means. Because I really agree with you, Janice, that the knowledge of God, true knowledge of God that comes to us through revelation, that is revealed to us, is never solely a kind of theoretical knowledge, right? There's always, it's always a practical knowledge. It's that know how, right? It tells us how we should be and it instructs us how to relate to others in the world. So there's always a practical and applicable and lived dimension for revelation.

And as you say, when we recognize it that way, that revelation isn't just a matter of kind of learned doctors of theology, but it's a central part of how we worship God, then that opens revelation to all believers and to all worshipers, right? It's a kind of democratizing move that the people whose names never end up in scripture, the women, the people of color whose names never show up in scripture, you know what? They still were entitled and the historical record shows that they received revelation too, right? That God spoke to them as well.

Johnson: These kinds of conversations, and I think…

Welch: Mm-hmm.

Johnson: For Latter-day Saints, this should be just primary for us, that this is what believers do, is they think about, they talk about, they negotiate their relationship with God. It's never just theoretical, it's never just in the abstract. It has real effect on real and the life of believers.

Welch: And that's an idea that's not without its challenges. And we'll talk about those a little later on. Revelation is a powerful idea--and more than an idea, an experience. And anything that is powerful and living can act in unexpected ways at times. So we'll get to that.

So Revelation is God communicating with us, right? It's God revealing something to us, giving us new understandings, new truths that we didn't have before. It always has implications for our real life. It's never solely theoretical. Maybe even before any particular thing that God might tell us, it teaches us something about who God is. And what it teaches us is that God is a God who speaks, right? Even before we have fully processed what it is He might be telling us, we already know something about God's character. This is a God who wants to communicate with us.

And then through that means of revelation, all other events and truths are made intelligible to us. So tell us beyond that, what is it that this concept of revelatory abundance in the Restoration, what does it teach us about who God is and about how we should approach Him and worship Him in our lived religious practice?

Johnson: I love the first section of the Doctrine and Covenants. It's, within the text of the revelation itself, it's called the Lord's Preface, and chronologically it's way it's completely out of order because it happens November 1st 1831 whereas the second is going to go to what 1823, so we're going to be jumping through time. But as they're talking about the publishing the revelations and through Joseph Smith, Joseph receives this revelation, the Lord's introduction here.

Welch: Yeah, right.

Johnson: And I think that this really became kind of foundational as I thought about it because there are so many different modes of revelation that are introduced in just in this one section alone. And the beginning, there is this emphasis on agency and a centrality of agency. We can hearken, then God will speak,

Welch: Hmm.

Johnson: But will we listen? That God will speak to everyone, but is it up to us? God will speak to all corners of the earth, but will we listen? We all have the opportunity to listen eventually, but will we choose that? That...

Welch: Yeah.

Johnson: We may hear, we may hear it, we may hear the intonations coming into our ear, but do we hearken to it? Do we react to it? And I think that from the very beginning, this idea of hearkening and this centrality of agency becomes very apparent that…

Welch: In other words, we have a role in this too, right? It's not just this kind of unilateral stream of light that comes from heaven. It's bilateral. We have our own role and we access that through our agency to listen to and then to hearken and to obey, to act on the basis of this newly revealed understanding.

Johnson: Yeah. It's not this mechanical function of just hearing sound, but it's receiving it.

Welch: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Johnson: And taking it in and that agency, that choice is fundamental. That we choose what we're going to take in. And then we talk about prophets. We talk about the, you know, in the 19th century, they're very millennialists. They are sure that the second coming is right at the doorstep.

And in verse 17, the Lord says, look, out of this chaos, I'm calling a prophet. I'm speaking to a prophet. So, we're introduced to another way that God speaks is directly to a chosen servant. That role of a prophet is pivotal.

And again, it's going to require, are we going to harken? Are we going to, how do we negotiate hearing God's word? What do we do with it? Do we let it go in one ear and out the other? Or do we act?

Welch: Mm-hmm. So, this is giving me a picture of a very generous God, a divine being who encourages our own agency and who involves us in his intent and his process for communicating with the world through revelation and who is willing to allow a servant to be his mouthpiece, right? Despite the fact that those servants are also human and, you know, are not as articulate as they might want to be. We know from the beginning, Moses, right, said, I am a slow of speech. Nevertheless, God involves prophets and then he involves each one of us generously bringing us into this most fundamental of divine works, which is revelation.

Johnson: Yeah, I love verse 17 in section one. Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth. So they're very focused at this millennial time when when all is in chaos and disruption. But knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jr. and spake unto him from heaven and gave him commandments.

So we first, have this witness, this claim that, look, that what happened anciently continues to happen today, that the heavens are opened. And that is, again, going to be one of the first messages that we get from Joseph Smith, is that the heavens are open. There is more scripture, but there is also this connection with heaven and a prophet. And I love this kind of juxtaposition of chaos and calamity and a prophet. That even though that prophet may be weak and fallible and just very mortal, the weak things of the world in verse 19 shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones.

Welch: Hmm.

Johnson: That this model of a prophet is not someone up on a pedestal who always does or says the right thing, but it is someone who has uniquely been called of God and to help us see through that chaos.

And I think whether that chaos is in the world around us, we've all got plenty of that, or it's feeling very personal, that revelatory abundance can help us see our way through the chaos. It doesn't always dissipate the chaos. And I think we get lots of models here that...

Welch: Yeah.

Johnson: Just having that connection doesn't mean opposition goes away or the chaos or the calamity of mortality go away, but that there is still this connection helps us to navigate it.

Welch: Yeah. So this shows us a God who's not only generous, but also consistent, right? If he spoke in the past, he will speak now. If he speaks to one nation, he will speak to all nations. So he's reliable and he's loving, right? He speaks for our good. He speaks to show us what is for our good and to draw us back to him.

So, all of these kind of facets of God's character come out, I think, just through this understanding of revelatory abundance.

Johnson: Yeah. So just we get a prophet and the, that the prophet can receive those commandments spoken to from heaven, from God. But then verse 20 gives us that everyone may speak in the name of God. That, we've got these competing ideals or this tension.

Welch: Hmm.

Johnson: And I think it's much more productive for us to think about it as a productive tension rather than a competition. That this tension actually, this opposition is useful for us. That we have to figure out how to navigate that. I remember, I'm thinking of a friend…

Welch: Yeah.

Johnson: When I was in divinity school, met this guy, he was, I think he was just, it was a really brief time. And I think he was just visiting Vanderbilt for a time, he was also a graduate student. But his girlfriend was a Latter-day Saint, and he had been investigating the church. And he came with me.

We, I actually went to the chapel to listen to general conference, and he got a ride with me and this was right like the…I think that it was Iraq war started during general conference. I think it was that year, is that like 2003?

Welch: Hmm. Yeah.

Johnson: He was very concerned about this, as we all were at the time, and but he was, said, how do you process this? Like, how do you go through this process of evaluating everything that comes from a prophet's mouth and determining whether or not it's true? And I think that I really hadn't thought about it that much before, but I see this tension over again in the scriptural text that

For me, I believed that it was then President Hinckley was a prophet of God. I had received my own witness. So then it was my task to decide what I was gonna do with what he said. I already believed that he was a prophet of God. And he was in the process of deciding what he thought, deciding what he believed. But for me, I had taken that initial step. And so then I had to decide what it meant.

And we have this tension that is, and actually we get one of my favorite, I think kind of encapsulations of the whole plan in section one, but this, that the fullness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple, until the ends of the world and before kings and rulers.

Behold, I am God and have spoken it and these commandments are of me and were given unto my servants in their weakness after the manner of their language that they might come to understanding. And that after the manner of their language that God not only speaks to prophets, but prophets, it's not this exclusionary model, but that also God wants to be heard.

Welch: Hmm.

Johnson: So, God will speak in a way that we can understand, and that might be our native tongue, it might be the mode of what works for our personality, but that all of us, that that weakness singular is inherent within each of us, but God still wants to communicate with us.

Welch: Yeah. I think this points to a really important point that we alluded to earlier, which is that revelation, I think, always has to go hand in hand with a partner. And that partner is humility and repentance. Right? And I think this tension that you're pointing to, revelation can be this kind of stage in which these both things are true, right? To quote our mutual friend, Kate Holbrook.

It's true that God speaks to each one of us, right? And that his light comes to each one of us and he wants to cultivate an individual relationship with each one. And it's also true that he calls prophets to guide and direct his church and to speak his will. Both of these things are true. And how do we live in light of both of these things? And I think the key is a kind of repentant attitude and a humble attitude.

Johnson: Yeah, in the verses that follows, it talks about us making errors and sinning, so two separate things, but if we seek wisdom, we might be instructed. When we sin, we need to repent.

Welch: Yeah, yep.

Johnson: You know, but and then verse 28, I think, displays that crux that you were talking about so beautifully. Inasmuch as they were humble, they might be made strong and blessed from on high and receive knowledge from time to time. And I love the. This idea of process. This is not… never just a one-time thing, it's not just someone lays our hands on our head and gives us the gift of the Holy Ghost and we've instantly got a conduit directly to heaven. But it's part of this mortal process. God will speak in a manner we can understand, but it's going to take time. We're going to mess up. We will sin. But that humility offers that, that key for us to continue to learn more. And that pivotal point of humility. And I think the humility also has the power to open us up to things that we didn't expect.

Welch: Well this is a-

Johnson: We all get stuck thinking about things in a certain way. And scripture has the possibility of expanding our understanding so that we might think about things a little bit differently and add things, not say this is the only way that it works, but really begin to see that abundance.

Welch: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is a nice transition into what I wanted to ask you about next. You have this really fantastic phrase, “the tyranny of a burning bosom.” This idea that we, there's this one way of feeling the Spirit. We call it the burning bosom, or however you might express it. And yet this can be limiting for us. It's useful. It's useful as far as it goes, but it can be limiting. So talk to us about that tyrannical burning bosom and why should we worry about relying on a single model of revelation?

Johnson: Thanks, that was the best chapter title. That was the one that had to stick. All the others kind of bowed down to that one. But, and really that, as I wrote this book, you know, we've kind of, this whole series went through quite a process.

Welch: Hahaha.

Johnson: But as I began writing this book, thinking about my university students who desperately want to hear the voice of God, but struggle in learning that process, and seeing them makes me think of myself. Because as I grew up in the church, I grew up in California in the Bay Area.

And, but I think that I think the percentage I use is 98.6 % of the talks that I heard on personal revelation always use section nine.

Welch: Yeah. That was a very precise statistic, right? Hahaha.

Johnson: And I'm sure entirely accurate. But it was kind of this one model of studying it out in your mind, which is never going to be a bad thing unless you're in a moment of crisis. But and then this burning in your bosom and I don't know, maybe I do feel what some other people would describe that way. But I, I would never describe something that I'm feeling in that way.

Even just to study it out in your mind, most of the time that's great advice. But if you're in a crisis moment, you don't have time to study it out in your mind. That model, you either get a burning in your bosom or nothing.

Welch: Yeah, that's a good point.

Johnson: You know, a stupor of thought and absence. Now, there have been times when I feel like I have experienced that. However, there are also times when the Lord said, no. And that's not allowed for in that model. A little later on, the Lord says, if you feel that it is right. And maybe that's a little more expansive. Maybe that works a little more with my experience.

Welch: Hmm.

Johnson: But I think that when we rely on one section, are peculiarities, can I even say that word, of this section that are specific to Oliver. He wants to translate, he wants this gift. But if we focus on one model, to the exclusion of all others, then what do we do when that doesn't fit the specific circumstances, we're in or it doesn't fit our specific experience? I think sometimes we begin to think, well, that just happens for other people. That doesn't happen to me.

Welch: God doesn't really want to speak to me or there's something wrong with me or I'm unworthy.

Johnson: Something I'm not doing it or I'm not I don't fit the mold that that God expects me to fit so I'm not worthy of receiving God's that I think that can have really destructive personally be be very destructive. And but I think that when we become careful readers of scripture, we never just see one option. We begin to see this multitude. And there are so many different models. And there are certain things that I think work for a lot of people, certain themes, peace, an absence of anxiety, comfort.

My favorite is Joseph talking about a flow of intelligence. But there are also things that I think are very personal. Maybe it's, some of it may just be semantics, how we describe, but there is, our manner of language is very personal.

Welch: Mm-hmm.

Johnson: And we need to figure out what that is. Joseph talks about it as a process. You're going to grow into the spirit of revelation. So take the time. Figure out. Okay, I felt that nudge. What do I do with that? That was a topic that I didn't think the Lord had anything to say to me about.

Welch: Mm-hmm.

So for somebody who is like, yeah, you know, the model of the burning bosom isn't exactly the way that God speaks to me normally. I want to be able to hear him better. I listened to President Nelson and I want to figure out how I hear him. How do I go about growing my capacity to do that?

What might be some other ways that a person could go about really developing the faculties that they need to hear God in an abundant way, not in a narrow way?

Johnson: Scripture, I mean we've talked about scripture as evidence or manifestation of revelation to a prophet or you know translation coming through a prophet or new revelations coming but scripture itself, the Word of God has the capacity to teach us how to hear God's word.

And I think some of that is kind of models that we can write down, but some of it also is just in that process of learning to slow down and pay attention and maybe think about something differently. Maybe use new scriptures that are clean, that don't have all our previous thoughts, you know, all over the pages.

Welch: Mmm.

Johnson: But finding ways to help us think about things differently, I think also opens us up to be taught. is, I think maybe it's one of those manifestations of our humility that we're willing to try something new, to do it in a new way.

Elder Bednar talked about his, all his different books of Mormon, that they're just the blue copies, you know, that he's on specific subjects and his son said, okay, who gets them? How do we divide these up? And he said, no, none of you get them, because you need to fight for that yourself.

There is, scripture has this power to expand, expand our minds, but I think also to expand…

Welch: Huh. Yes.

Johnson: Expand our ideas about revelation and who God is and how God communicates with us. And sometimes it's a specific model but sometimes it is us being willing to participate in the process itself that more in a more I don't know metaphysical way opens us up to more revelation.

Welch: Yeah.

Yeah. So learning to become a good reader, right? Expanding both our attentional capacity, but also our ability to think well, right? To think well and to understand. And we can grow. We can improve that way when we work on it. I wonder whether also expanding our imagination, kind of feeding our imagination. I love section 138. This is Joseph F. Smith's revelation of Christ's ministry in spirit prison. And it's so beautifully described and lots of these really vivid details that just stick out. And I believe that the Lord was able to communicate through Joseph F. Smith because he had a beautiful and fertile imagination that had been cultivated, right? And then the Lord could use that capacity of his to communicate through him. So I think working on these sort of--if you're an artist, develop your artistic capacity. If you're a musician, develop your musical capacity. These are all ways that God can speak to you, that he can reveal things to you.

Johnson: Yeah, and section 138 also section 76, you've got kind of similar models. Joseph and Sydney with section 76, and they're studying John 5:39. And the what's the phrase, the resurrection of damnation that they have this specific question, the specific thing. Joseph F. Smith is surrounded by death.

Welch: Mm-hmm. Yep.

Johnson: Really his whole life, but particularly in October of 1819. He's had a son and a daughter-in-law die in the next year. This is the height of the pandemic, the flu pandemic in Utah in October. And he is thinking about this phrase from 1 Peter and…

Welch: Mm. Yeah.

Johnson: He understands it. And in both instances, they first understand it and then they continue to meditate upon it. You know, I feel like I am taught more by the Lord when I don't just stick with my initial question. My initial questions are never the most valuable ones. And it's when I meditate upon it, when I continue. But how often do we just stick with what we first get?

Welch: Hmm. Yeah.

Johnson: You know, and that's a beautiful revelatory thing. But in both of these instances, the eternities, literally the eternities were opened up unto them when they meditated upon this beautiful answer that they'd received.

Welch: Yeah.

Yeah, that's such a good point. So first, they come across something that they don't understand. They come to a point of confusion or not understanding. So they ask, right? That's a crucial part. They ask a question. But then what you're saying is that they then sit with that and they ask follow-up questions, right? They continue to meditate on that. I guess I'm a little bit like a...

Johnson: Yeah.

Welch: A carpenter who has a hammer, everything looks like a nail. But I'm thinking about podcasting here, right? If I only ever ask that first question to my guest and I never asked a follow-up question, I never took the time to really consider what they were saying and build on that, then the conversation would not be nearly as rich. So we ask… Maybe ask, seek and knock from, you know, Matthew 7:7. Maybe those aren't meant to just be restating the same question. Maybe it's like, ask? Great.

Johnson: Yeah.

Welch: Now, keep on going. Now seek. Yeah, good. Okay. Keep on going. Now knock, right? It's an extended, it's a process, as you say, not a one-time thing, but it's a way of being in relationship with God throughout our lives.

Johnson: Keep going. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think that for me that was maybe, I don't know, I'm not very good at reading truth, but that it just reinforced that witness that God is a God who speaks and that God wants to communicate with us. I know, sometimes culturally we think that, if we have too many questions, we're demonstrating a lack of faith. But on the contrary, I think that those questions enable us to receive more, but also enable us to develop relationship, to develop a relationship with God and that relationship can continue to grow through this dialogic conversation. That this is not just a one-time thing, that we get one witness and that God is present and that's it, but that we can continue to grow and develop that relationship.

I love that you wrote your fabulous introduction to ether, but that is one of my favorite things of those first few chapters of Ether.

is seeing that relationship that the brother has with God. That he is the one to call upon the Lord and he messes up and he doesn't call on the Lord, but the relationship that has grown and been established is not gone because of his sin even when that sin lasts so long. You know, that relationship endures and he's got to… The Lord's going to call him to repentance and he has to change his behavior and continue to build on that relationship. But it's not gone because he messes up. The relationship is still there.

Welch: Yeah. Yeah. I want to come back to that in a minute, but let's use this as a transition now. We don't blow our opportunity to be in relationship with God by messing up one time, right? I totally agree. But there are, you do discuss some cautionary tales, right? Stumbling blocks that can impede our ability to relate to God, to hear from him, to feel from him. So what are some of these cautionary tales? What are some of these stumbling blocks? Especially ones that might be most relevant to us now.

Johnson: I really like, I mean, I actually think the first kind of the first half of the Doctrine and Covenants is really a handbook feels too, too stark, you know, but it's helped giving us kind of these cautionary tales to learn from.

And particularly when we get to Kirtland, so the early 50s, those revelations, you've got a bunch of saints who are converted when missionaries come. They're there for two weeks. They leave them with some books of Mormon, but not enough to go around. And then the missionaries take off and continue their mission to go preach to Indigenous peoples on the permanent Indian frontier to the West. And those people in Kirtland have been baptized, but then they're left to just figure things out. And all sorts of different ideas start creeping in. And I think that it gives us, it's easy for us to A, just dismiss, all sorts of craziness happened, and not look at like why some of that craziness happened. Like some of the craziness, I would argue, happened because they're actually reading the Book of Mormon well.

Like even though they don't have enough copies of the Book of Mormon, they're reading in community and they begin kind of acting out the Book of Mormon. My favorite example is Heman Bassett. He has two missionary companions and he's like 16 or 17. Like they're young, and they are going around to people's houses and he will do pull-ups like on a rafter in someone's house and hit his head on the rafter until he knocks himself out because it produces some sort of spiritual experience.

One of his companions will hold his breath until he's blue in the face and he's knocked out because it produces some sort of spiritual experience.

Welch: Mm-hmm. I see, some kind of altered state of consciousness that they interpreted as revelation or they felt like it would facilitate revelation in some way, but they're going to these really extreme and bizarre lengths to force it. Yeah.

Johnson: Yeah. Bizarre lengths. Now we can just dismiss that. However, where else do we see examples of people passing out and having spiritual experiences?

Welch: Maybe Alma Chapter 19, for instance.

Johnson: Maybe for instance, Alma 19. We've got multiple examples in the Book of Mormon. Now, they need to learn that maybe they can't manipulate the spirit. And it's going to take time for them to learn. But this isn't inherently an evil desire that they had.

Welch: Yeah, I think it really matters. As I alluded to earlier on, there's a part of me that can understand the potency, the power, and thus sometimes the danger of empowering individuals to seek God's will in their life. Because divorced from certain other principles--we've talked about repentance and humility, we've talked about the doctrine of stewardship--divorced from some other principles, it can really run amok, either maliciously by somebody who is cynically and explicitly seeking to exploit the idea of revelation to take advantage of another person, or as you suggest, very innocently, out of a desire to seek an overabundance maybe of a desire to communicate with God and that's a kind of forcing of it, right? A sense that I can force God to speak to me in these certain ways. So there's where an idea of agency would come in.

But it really matters that this doctrine, this teaching of revelation, this practice of revelation is practiced in conjunction with other qualities of discipleship because people can be misled. And it isn't just, it didn't just happen back…

Johnson: Yeah.

Welch: Then, right? Today, in our own community, right? There are people who are misled by false revelations. And this seems to me as kind of a perpetual caution for Latter-day Saints. This is sort of the price to pay of our incredible revelatory abundance that we enjoy in our community. We have to especially be on guard for ways that that can be exploited. And that means that as a people, we need to be repentant. We need to develop a kind of robust capacity for sort of self-criticism, right? We need to be cautious and prudent in all these ways because we have a really powerful instrument in our hands. So to our children, as we teach them this mind-blowing idea that God wants to speak to you, listen to him and hear him. Let's also teach them about agency. Let's teach them about stewardship. Let's teach them about repentance, humility, and a kind of self-critical eye as well.

Johnson: Yeah. And I think that the language in 50, because and also I think it gives us helps us with moderation as we're trying to ward off, that we don't ward off things that actually aren't bad. You know, section 50 uses the Isaiah language, come let us reason together. And like normally if a false spirit appears to me, you know,

Welch: Right.

Johnson: False idea, whatever it is, I think my first inclination is I should just shove it away. You know, and sometimes we think any discomfort that we feel means that it's bad, but maybe we feel discomfort because it's a cultural practice that isn't familiar to us.

Welch: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Johnson: Just like it's not our manner of language. Maybe it's a different way of doing something that is not familiar to us. And that beautiful Isaiah language, come let us reason together. Sit down, evaluate it, use your brain. Because this kind of expansive, abundant revelation is not always going to come in a predictable way. And it's not going to come in a predictable timeline.

Welch: Yeah, right.

Johnson: I think the timing is the other element here. We can't force revelation. It's God, having faith in God's timing is just as important that we line ourselves up with God's timeline as it is that we line ourselves up with God's will. No one, not even Joseph, can get God's word when they demand it.

Welch: Exactly. Just as in the conversation, right? We've been talking about revelation as kind of the basis of our relationship with God. When I'm having a discussion with my husband, I don't get to control what he says. I don't get to control when he says it. It may not be the right time for him. I mean, he is himself and he is other than me. And God likewise is other…

Johnson: Yeah.

Welch: Than me. He's not a chatbot. He's not Chat GPT that's always on and is going to, you know, always echo back to me what I want to hear. Revelation is there because it's meant to sort of jolt us, right? It's meant to show us something new that we couldn't have seen ourselves before. So it's not under our control in that way.

Johnson: And it's infinitely more adaptable and more valuable because it's not predictable and we cannot demand it.

Welch: Because of that. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so it really is--there's a balance here, right? We don't want to be too closed. There's a real risk of being too cautious, right? And saying, just not being open to the newness that God wants to bring into our lives. And then on the other hand, there's this kind of danger, right? Of maybe being so open that we are misled or we are manipulated by it.

You know, as I've thought about this and tried to, tried to balance these things in very real ways in my life. I've taken some comfort from a verse that in King Benjamin's address, it's Mosiah 5:13. And this is what it says: “for how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served and who is a stranger unto him and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart.”

So, I want to know who God is. And so to recognize if the revelation that I'm receiving is real, I can condition myself, I can practice and I can increase the likelihood that I'll properly interpret it by serving Him. Because when I serve, right, when I am keeping the commandments, when I'm serving in the Church, when I'm observing these basic practices, in itself, those practices are teaching me about who God is. And so then I'll be more likely to be able to judge, is this congruent with the God that I know and the God that I'm in relationship with.

So, I think these basic kind of spiritual practices of keeping the commandments can also go very far in helping us steer clear of those, of too much openness or too much closedness.

Johnson: Yeah, I like that example because we all need those tethers to help be sure that we are-- whether they're tethers or anchors or whatever analogy we'll want to use--but that we are anchored to that truth.

And sometimes we pick the path of least resistance. We do the same thing that our parents have done or family members have done because it feels safe to us. But also within that, the Lord says, OK, here are the most important things. Figure that out. What's most important? And then find your own track.

Welch: Hmm.

Johnson: And that can be really scary. Like we need to make sure that we're, we have that anchor or that tether if we're going to go out on our own and find and be bushwhacking, you know, and creating an entirely new trail. We need that, that certainty that comes from, from that foundation. I'm mixing all sorts of metaphors here, but whichever one you like the best, go with that one.

Welch: Yeah.

Johnson: But we need that if we're going to be able to do what God asks us to do, which is not sometimes going to be very unpredictable.

Welch: Yeah, that's right. So, there's a kind of security actually. When we are securely anchored in nourishing spiritual practices, that actually can make us more adventurous in our ability to hear revelation and to say, wow, God is calling me to something new and to something different. And I can feel secure enough to follow where he's leading me because I have this secure foundation already. Yeah, that's a really good point, Janiece.

Johnson: Yeah. Yeah.

Welch: So sometimes the problem, either as a people or individually, might be too many voices and trying to discern and evaluate those. Sometimes, though, it's an opposite problem. And you have a whole chapter that you dedicate to the times when God seems to be silent, right? When we seem to not be able to hear His voice and we aren't able to receive any kind of communication from Him. In fact, you point to Joseph Smith himself who experienced periods of divine silence. So what can we learn from the Prophet Joseph about that and how should we cope with times in our life where it just feels like the heavens are closed for a minute?

Johnson: Just because we ask doesn't mean that something's gonna come. If we know we have something we need to fix, we just fix it. It's part of our mortal experience that we are going to sin. That is the first proposition of Christianity: that we are all sinners. That is part of our mortal experience. So, fix it. But...

Welch: Mm-hmm.

Johnson: We shouldn't assume, and I think that sometimes when we're not reading scripture carefully or we assume that if there is silence it must be our fault and maybe the silence has a different purpose. I love Adam Miller saying lean into the silence.

How do we react differently if we see this as an opportunity rather than a door being shut. But also, looking at Joseph's experience, know that this is part of our shared collective experience, that all of us are going to experience this at some point. And even at, in 1833 at a really critical time for Joseph when the saints are being expelled from Jackson County and he needs to know what to do and he doesn't hear anything for four months from the Lord and that has to be devastating like they have put everything into this idea that they can create Zion and…

Welch: Yeah.

Johnson: It looks like it's failed and they're in real physical danger and have been harmed and have been pushed from their homes and Joseph just gets silence from the Lord. And he writes to the saints and Orson Pratt uses, puts together excerpts. So this becomes, enters into the canon in the 1878 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. But what it presents is kind of a collapsed version of Joseph's own experience. And so, we have this, seven verses at the beginning, of Joseph crying out to the Lord.

And then in verse seven, the Lord responds, “my son, peace be unto my unto thy soul.” And yet, if we look at Joseph's full experience, it's a much longer time. It's months, weeks, probably months. And there is again, this silence.

He is stuck in this detestable, horrific place by people who have been very, have been horrible to him. And he's crying out to the Lord and not getting a response. But in the meantime, his friends write him.

Even hearing from the difficulty that his friends are going through, that their words initiate a change in him. And brings him that hope and reminds him of that hope that has always existed. And I think that that's such a beautiful thing because Joseph loses a little bit of that hope himself in that silence and darkness.

But it becomes this sacred place, but not because the Lord speaks to him instantaneously. That juxtaposition of the silence and then the friends and bringing that hope and then ultimately the word of the Lord comes to him.

Sometimes I think that we expect that every time we call out, we're going to get a response immediately. And even when the response comes, Joseph has to strain himself to hear it. It isn't a loud, thundering, booming voice of God.

The voice of inspiration steals along and whispers, My son, peace be unto thy soul. That is a very different model than a loud booming voice from heaven coming the second he asks for it. if, yeah, God can be in the silence, and there is purpose in that juxtaposition.

Welch: God can be in the silence.

Johnson: That the silence and the speaking and the friends, that the silence I think illuminates those things that are present. The absence illuminates the things that are present. It is very easy for us to just focus on absence, on those things that we want that we don't have.

But if we become entirely obsessed with what is absent, we miss all those things that are present. And I think that those blessings of the saints and the faith of the saints buoys Joseph up and rekindles that hope and that expectation that he has from Christ. But it only happens with that silence seems a necessary part for him to learn that by experience.

Welch: So, when we find ourselves in a period of divine silence, we ask ourselves, is it something I did? Do I need to repent? The answer is yes, you do need to repent because the answer is always yes, you do need to repent. Go repent, and even then it still might be silent. But there's something to be learned and something to be gained in that silence, whether it be a turning towards other resources, towards our friends, a strengthening of our bonds as we commiserate and care for each other when they may be in these deserts of revelation. Or it helps us to appreciate the quality, the subtleties of God, right? The quietness of His voice helps us actually refine our ability to hear Him when we do strain, right? When we really have to strain after, to discern what it is that he's saying to us. It's all a part of the way he wants to tutor us, teach us, guide us, and ultimately draw us back to him.

Johnson: Yeah, being still is a form of work. It's not just us being lazy or throwing up our hands, but it is a beautiful meditative practice, too. And I think it is one of those that can open us up to this abundance, even in the midst of silence.

Welch: Yes. Janiece, this has been such a rich discussion and we're about to wrap up here. You have this really, you did this fascinating kind of statistical analysis and you found, this one I think is in fact a precise statistic, that 65 % of the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants seem to have come in response to a question. So, a key to growing, developing, in our revelatory relationship with God is learning how to ask good questions. That's very convenient for me because the title of this podcast is The Questions We Should Be Asking. And so, this leads me to my final question to you, which is always my final question to my guests, which is what are the questions we should be asking not only to God, but about revelation? And how can we ask better questions when we approach the Lord?

Johnson: I think that being introspective and asking how can I open myself up to this abundance more readily, you know, maybe I think that's something that's going to look different for all of us. There was… listening to conference, and now I'm completely forgetting whose talk it was. But I just had this moment where I thought, I need to be more focused on worship. That, that on, I think more of that being still, and that meditative…

Welch: Hmm.

Johnson: State and opening ourselves up. What lessons, what things do I need to begin to think differently about? And maybe that is maybe our question for the Lord is like the rich young ruler, you know, what lack I yet?

And then the next step, I hope that we're just seeing him in that moment, that that's not his final place, but then being willing to go and follow and act and do what God asks of us. The asking is the first step and is so important. And also that opens up, I have a whole list in my head of all the stuff I need to do. But do I know what God thinks is most important for me? And when we get those nudges, maybe it's just a little bit and we need to really stretch to hear. Can we be quiet enough that we will hear and then we will act?

Welch: Janiece, I think that's a wonderful place to conclude today. Thank you for writing this great book. I know our listeners are going to go right out and buy it now. Thank you for all that you've shared, your wisdom, and your experience today. God wants to speak to us, and we can improve our ability to hear him. That's going to stick with me. Thank you so much, Janiece Johnson, for being on the Maxwell Institute Podcast.

Johnson: Thanks, Rosalynde.

Welch: That concludes my conversation with Dr. Janiece Johnson about her book Revelation. Thank you for listening! If you found yourself intrigued by her concept of "revelatory abundance" or her insights on divine silence, I encourage you to explore her book further.

All seven volumes in the Themes in the Doctrine and Covenants series are available now from the Maxwell Institute and can be purchased through Desertbook.com, Amazon, or your local bookstore. Visit mi.byu.edu for more information about this special series.

Did this discussion make you think differently about how you hear God's voice in your life? Please share this episode with friends who might be seeking a deeper understanding of revelation. And if you've enjoyed our series of author conversations, help others discover them by subscribing and reviewing wherever you get your podcasts.

Stay connected with the Maxwell Institute by following @BYUMaxwell on social media and signing up for our newsletter at mi.byu.edu. We'll be back soon with more thought-provoking discussions in our "Questions We Should Be Asking" series. Until next time, remember that God speaks to all who are willing to listen– sometimes even in the silence.