Maxwell Institute Podcast #182: The Future of Religion in the United Kingdom, with Thomas Russell

MI #182: The Future of Religion in the UK, with Thomas Russell

Introduction

From Brigham Young University’s Maxwell Institute, this is the Maxwell Institute Podcast: Faith Illuminating Scholarship

I’m Rosalynde Welch, host of the podcast, and today I have for you an interview with Professor Tom Russell, a filmmaker and professor of media arts at Brigham Young University. Tom is also our newest associate at the Maxwell Institute. He’s the first of several BYU colleagues who have joined us for a two-year fellowship. Each of these new fellows comes from a different academic background, but they all bring an exciting project that relates in some way to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

Tom is here to complete a television miniseries called Congregation, which is a thoughtful look at congregational worship in the United Kingdom. Like many places around the world, the United Kingdom (UK) has seen a decline in religiosity, and many churches stand empty on Sunday mornings. While some observers believe that religion may be on the cusp of a comeback, there’s no doubt that the retreat of churchgoing has profoundly changed the way that communities are organized in England. Tom wanted to document this moment in time—not only to preserve on film the places and practices of the faithful, but to better understand those who continue to congregate in worship. Because the truth is that the flock of faithful is still vibrant on the sceptered isle. What motivates the faith leaders and the worshipers who gather every Sunday? What do they find together in church that they can’t find elsewhere? And how is it that art, nature, and beauty can complement our search for God at church? Join me in this lively conversation with Professor Tom Russell.

Interview

Rosalynde Welch: Tom Russell, welcome to the Maxwell Institute podcast.

Tom Russell: Thank you, Rosalynde.

Welch: All right, so come with me on a little journey, a journey of the mind, Tom. We're going to cross the Atlantic Ocean. We're in the United Kingdom. It's a beautiful Sunday morning in high summer. What is the average person doing on this beautiful Sunday morning in the UK?

Russell: Hmm. Well, it's hard for me to know what the average person is doing, but I would say that largely the same thing that we're doing here with a few really important exceptions. I think there's a little bit more interaction between natural spaces in the UK and the people who live in those areas, more people in parks, in kind of green spaces where they can kind of enjoy that time. And at least our experience was that it seemed to expand a bit on Sunday. People would be there on the weekends. And Sundays in particular. I think one of the things that's also different is you'll hear, and you know this early in the morning, the bells. And then you'll still see, contrary to kind of dire reports, people that do still go to church services. They're fewer and fewer, but you'll see people in church. You'll see people participating in various kinds of worship on Sunday. And lots of people, by the way, also at theaters and doing the same things we do here, recreational events.

Welch: Yeah. So you have people doing all sorts of things. They're out in nature. They're communing with the earth. They're probably shopping. They're seeking entertainment. Those church bells are going in the background and some of them are in church. Less probably are in church in 2025 than there would have been in 1955 or in 1855, right? But there are still many people in church on a Sunday morning. For those who are there in church congregating with others, why would they choose to be there? Given that there's little social pressure now, those church bells are optional for many people now. So for those who go, they are opting in deliberately. Why? Why are they there on that Sunday morning?

Russell: That's a terrific question and it varies from person to person; there are people, I would say, I'm speaking only for myself, when I grew up there was a sort of a holy habit, sort of. I don't know if it was all that holy. It was a habit for sure. And it was an expectation. So, you know, we'd wake up and that's what we did. That's just what we did. I think there's still plenty of that.

Particularly and interestingly, I found that at Oxford and Cambridge, you'd go into some of those chapels and there were long time worshipers, men and women who were in that space and knew the liturgy and participated with great enthusiasm. So it wasn't just a matter of life habit. There was a tremendous sense of conviction in that worship.

So I think for some, it's just we have always done this. This is what we always will do. It's the proper thing to do on a Sunday or on a day of worship. And then there are some, I think, who are there as pilgrims. They're either fatigued by the kind of daily drudgeries, or they're seeking that experience that lifts them beyond the ordinary. This is—forgive a little story. I remember going and I'm pretty sure it was at Oxford and I went in this this young fellow came in. One of the things that I love about those services is that very often we looked a little out of place in our shirts and ties.

Welch: Yeah, it's more casual than the typical Latter-day Saint sacrament meeting.

Russell: Absolutely. And there was this side of me, because I've taken loved ones to church before who perhaps weren't dressed as in their suits and ties, I thought, what a lovely thing that you don't feel out of place, I suppose, that you feel welcome in that space. So a young man came walking in. I'm sure he was a student at Oxford. And he was rather casually dressed. And he came in in his shorts and his sneakers and a t-shirt.

I have that old thing in my head of like, well, throw on a button-up shirt or something. And this guy, we get to the portion in which you can sit, you can stand, or you can kneel. Very few people kneel for that portion. And this young guy knelt. And really, in a deeply personal way, was seeking a divine connection. I think I can't say what he was there for, but earnestly, I mean, really deeply seeking to commune. And tearfully so. I mean, this was a really impassioned kind of moment for him. And then, of course, for me, because I got to be there with him and the spirit of what he was doing emanated from him, I think, to others in that space.

There was some difference between the large cathedral worship and the parish worship. The cathedral worship is, I mean, it gives you goosebumps. It's just beautiful. The music is beautiful. And the ritual is beautiful and sweet. In the parishes, it's very intimate. It's very close. And the congregants know one another, particularly in the rural areas. So, they're there as a family. It strikes you that the graveyards that we don't see that here, but the cemeteries that surround those parishes, that these are family and friends in life and in death that they remain this beautiful little community.

Welch: Yeah. So, they're there those Sunday mornings. They're seeking connection, connection with the living and also connection with the tradition, connection with the deep past, connection with ancestors. They're seeking solace or comfort of some kind and connection. And they're seeking transcendence, right? They're seeking a feeling of awe or a feeling of reverence. They're seeking all these things. And you saw that in all these different Sunday morning spaces there in the UK. In many ways, these were precisely the questions that you were exploring in or that you are exploring in your current project, Congregation.

Just tell us a little bit about Congregation.

Russell: The first time that the idea occurred to us, we were in, well, we're in the Cotswolds and I think it was St. James Church. It was a small parish church.

We went for a thing called Christingle, which is a Christmas tradition. It's a beautiful, lovely little thing. We sing Christmas hymns and we hold a strange little orange object. I'm not sure what it is, but it's made out of an orange. Anyway, it's a lovely little gathering of that community. And as we sat there, this little tiny fella named George got up and he sang a Christmas song.

And he sang it without any embarrassment, without any, you know sometimes we hold back. And he just sang it beautifully, was clearly a young choir member. And as he sang it, I thought, this is just beautiful. But then I looked around and I saw all of this devotion and this affection for this young fellow standing up there in front of everybody. And I thought, man, what if this continues to decline and young people don't have that experience of the support and network of a community pulling for them and encouraging them and loving them, really loving them, not just gathering together to do a project of some kind, but loving them for being them.

And so I said to Courtney, we need to do something that examines this. We got back, this is the part that I said sort of motivated us, but we lost the thread.

Welch: So Courtney is your wife, just to clarify.

Russell: I'm sorry, yes, Courtney's the brains of the outfit. Yes. So she usually gets things done much better than I do. I find a way to put it off. And so Courtney got back and she started asking the follow up questions that you ought to ask about that. And as we researched, it became clear, and we had heard this before we went, but that congregational devotion is in pretty dramatic decline across Europe. The UK is actually, I mean, France and Germany are even in greater decline than the UK right now. And we thought, wow, that would be then that thought of what would happen if you lost this is a reality. Some of that data is really kind of frightening as you look at it. You think, wow, there's not going to be anybody left.

And so we started looking at those statistics and thinking, boy, we've got to do something that encourages people to get back to church. So we thought, I wonder if we can capture that, if we can get there and just spend time with people and around the congregants and in the setting.

Welch: Yes.

Russell: And so that's sort of where the project went instead of becoming kind of a news documentary where we really hit hard, hey, congregational worship is in decline and why, we thought it might be of equal value at least, others with the bigger chops for that sort of documentary may be able to do that. We thought it might be of equal value just to kind of present the beauty of these Christian congregations and the people that attend.

So that's Congregation—a celebration of congregational worship. In the sense of celebration, it explains also, I think, why when you said some people are there for comfort or solace, we examine things like pain and difficulty and hear from those people; or conflict and healing, how those happen, what the value of fellowship in general and service, those sorts of things.

Welch: Yeah. So you decide to go back to the UK and you're there for two months. How long were you there? In the summer of 2023?

Russell: Yes, good. Yeah, you're smarter than I am.

Welch: And you take some BYU students with you, right? So you've got a crew of film students with you and you fan out across the UK and you just spend time with churchgoers, but not only in churches, as you say, right? You spend time with them in their homes, out of doors, examining sort of the exteriors of churches. really get—examining, observing, just the public spaces where people are together, right? When they're not in church. And then you kind of bring this all together. You could have gone a lot of different directions with this to explore these ideas.

And you're not going to do a documentary, right? Documentarians can do that better. So you land on a certain style. And for those who are familiar with, especially cinema that has to do with the religious and the spiritual, you'll recognize the name of Terrence Malick, maybe best known for his film, The Tree of Life. And he has developed a very unique and recognizable kind of visual grammar for sacred and transcendent experiences. And a lot of what you do in Congregation reminds me a little bit of Malick's style. The episodes are filled with beautiful shots of nature, sweeping aerial shots of the green fields and the beautiful flowers, the animal life, right? Many beautiful shots of sheep in the fields. There are poetry voiceovers. We hear the voice of Nick Cave reading a poem. There's beautiful music and kind of abstract sort of soundscapes, abstract art images that are sort of reminiscent of stained glass, many art images from Brian Kershisnik.

So, it's just filled with these aesthetic elements that are in conversation, though sometimes obliquely, with the people and the voices that we're hearing as well. You don't always draw out the exact connections between these other elements. So tell me about that style. How did you land on that? Why did you decide to include all these other aesthetic elements in each little film?

Russell: I love this question. By the way, to mention our project with Terrence Malick makes me very, very happy. Yeah, that's very kind. Yeah, the things that you've noticed, by the way, that's also deeply gratifying, I suppose, to me, that you're seeing it in that way, when you see that little family of ducks in the pond, or when you see that tree, as you pointed out, or you see those green fields, or you hear somebody laugh, or you see somebody dance, that it is possible for the individual to encounter God.

And I think not by accident. I think that maybe, well, who am I to say this? But that may be part of the plan or the intent, it seems, of life here. That the incarnation of Christ, God with us, is as powerful as, of course, what we would say is the ultimate sacrifice of Christ, which is this redeeming act.

In addition to that, just the very act of coming into this physical world and encountering the physical world and showing us how we can encounter the physical world and then telling us you're going to encounter tribulation, but not just don't be afraid. He says, be of good cheer. I've overcome the world. There's tremendous comfort in that.

One the most moving parts to me is seeing, is hearing Timothy Radcliffe talking about encountering Christ. He says, we don't know what he looked like, but I know what you look like. And the Savior told him, you can see me in this person that you encounter, especially the least, the one that you don't think I'm, you know, that's where you'll find me. So what you described, I think, is a person with the sort of hardwiring to see meaning in the beauties of the natural world and the physical world and to find God there, but that it's a very personal experience. And when a person is put into this mortal sphere, they navigate it a bit like a pilgrim, and meaning starts to come to us.

My little boy, once we were driving on, he was a little tiny guy, and he said, Dad, I know what trees mean now. And I said, trees mean? OK, well, please explain. And I was too silly to understand that he was talking about what I'm describing. He said, well they point up to God so that we'll remember God? I think he probably was onto something.

Russell: There was a congregation in O'Campden. And before we left, they started sending us their newsletter. And their newsletter had little snippets and information. But it also included the things for which that congregation was praying. We asked, would you mind if we and our BYU students started praying with you for these things? And they were very moved by that, very touched by that. They said, we'd love that.

By the time we got back to see them, we felt that we knew them. Some of them felt that they knew us. There was this tremendous warmth that happened. So, like you said, it didn't have to really be that we were overtly discussing those topics. It was just being together and aiming for the same things that they were aiming at that created this beautiful unity.

We also got to interview the Archbishop of York, which is kind of the first counselor in the first presidency in the Anglican Church, Stephen Cottrell. Yes, yes, and modest and sweet and good and kind to us, so kind. And after we were done speaking to him, he said, being from, and you remember when it wouldn't have been this way, but he said, since you're from the Christian tradition of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—he used the full name—he said, please, you're welcome to come and join me for the Eucharist, if you would like. And if you're uncomfortable with that, he said, I know you don't drink wine, so you don't need to drink the wine. He said, if you're not comfortable with either one, I can give you a blessing, or you can just attend with us, and we can feel your spirit. And I still remember the face, his face, as I walked up there to have that experience with him, and how kindly and dear it was and how I realized well these were this was the church. These were the people who were bravely trying to keep things going before the restoration. This was the Lord's Church and so, still is not just was, but still is full of people trying to do their their very very best to point people to Christ, to point them at the same thing.

Welch: So, that becomes an important kind of touchstone, especially in the second episode that's focusing on fellowship at church, right? And you show a number of scenes of congregants communing together and eating together, whether it be eating sacramentally in the ritual of what we know as the sacrament, or even just in informal settings, right? Eating together in the coffee hour after the morning service. And you're making the point again in your very gentle and subtle way that congregating as believers can offer a kind of fellowship and belonging and connection and community in the modern world that you maybe can't get in other kinds of secular spaces. Did I read you rightly? Is that what you were saying? And if so, how is church fellowship different from other kinds of fellowship?

Russell: Yes. Well, I'll defer or I'll point to Mark Wrathall for both of these. A very bright LDS scholar at Oxford who addressed, I thought, both of those beautifully. And you've heard that where he says, if we gather together for the Lord's Supper, but we don't actually gather together, if we don't congregate in the beautiful friendship sense of the word then we're missing something. And the sacrament is missing a symbol. It needs to also point and make reference to our co-dependence upon food and upon one another and on celebratory experience with each other. Otherwise, the sacrament itself is missing an element of that symbol. He then said something that I thought was really, really helpful. And he wasn't saying—because atheists in the UK do so many beautiful, wonderful humanitarian things. They accomplish tremendous good. Elder Phillips, who is a General Authority, spoke to that and said some of the best interactions that we have are with people who aren't believers in Christ or in a God at all, but they know that they want to help their fellow man.

Welch: I really appreciated that. Yeah, you know, there's no attempt here to demonize anybody. It's a very ecumenical approach, right? It's not about atheist versus believers, and it's not about believer versus believer, right? In fact, you explicitly kind of include several scenes of churches working together. There's a beautiful scene where there's a Latter-day Saint meeting occurring in the beautiful space of Pembroke College Chapel in Oxford, right? So this isn't about, this isn't the place or the project to kind of parse out these fine differences. Instead, this is the place and the project to celebrate what we share in common. Even with unbelievers, there was a series of shots of public spaces, the beach and a kind of a, maybe it was Piccadilly Circus and kind of a public square. And at first I thought that the point was going to be, look how lonely people are in secular spaces. But the reality is actually we saw people interacting in very lovely ways in these other places as well, right? So there was no sense that like the only place that anything good is ever happening is in the church. And yet there is a certain quality of fellowship that I think we can generate within a covenant bound community. And Aaron Reeves, who was the Latter-day Saint, who was speaking in that meeting I referred to, he speaks beautifully about Christ on the cross bringing Mary and John, the two most beloved people in his life together. And he makes them family in that moment, right? So it might be that there's a kind of covenant bound familial quality to the bonds of fellowship that are forged at the feet of Christ.

Russell: That's, you said that just beautifully. I think Mark, back to Mark Wrathall—and Aaron is, I think his counselor—that he says there is something about doing this in a committed setting in which you have committed to the other. That he said if you haven't made that commitment, it's too easy when it becomes difficult to just walk away from it. That these are actually, the laboratories of Christianity when we encounter that talk or that person that we say, it made, you it was difficult for me in words. And we say, you know, the church is perfect, not the people. Well, the people are the point. And so Mark is saying you must commit to saying despite difficulty, despite somebody saying something that you wish they hadn't said or even offending you, you find a way in a difficult-to-love situation to love and to reach out.

Aaron, the talk you mentioned, which I wish we'd had time for the entire thing. It was just, I thought, masterful, refers to it as doing this at the feet of Jesus, that we always do so at the foot of the cross or at the feet of Jesus, that we take the other into our inmost self, and that this is a hard thing.

The Savior knew that it was challenging for us to do that. But I think that the difference in those Christian congregations is that the foundation, the very foundation of the fellowship, is that you are going to meet with, as Rowena King says, in unchosen relationships. And Elaine Storky says, we're born into relationship. It's the whole point.

If when we talk about atonement or this at-one-ment, this association, this relationship is what matters, being bound to one another, being bound to God in sacred ways. So Rowena King says that she's grateful when somebody is, when they might be having a struggle with somebody because it's like, well, here's an opportunity to try this thing.

Welch: This is the laboratory to put it to the test.

Russell: Yes, yes, to see if we can do this when it's difficult.

I'm thinking of that one guy. We talk about who was actually a student on the project, Soren, who has this severe stuttering problem. And the experience was that his mother knew she could sense what he articulates. He says, I was just never going to talk. That was my plan. I would just stay to myself. I wouldn't have to say anything. And in a church setting, his mother sensing this, said on a fast Sunday, I'd like you to go up and bear your testimony. Well, this is mortifying for this poor young man. It was a severe stutter. So it'll be the first time. It's a very, very debilitating stutter for him. And so he got up and he said his very brief little testimony. And then as he returned to his seat, that congregation said to him, good job, good job, you know, encouraged him. Well, where else does that happen but in a setting in which strangers are thrown together and under the covenant of Christ to love and uplift and encourage one another. So yeah, there's something special about Christian congregation. It's not the only one, but there's something special.

Welch: Well, and as you suggest, one of the times that these human connections, this human congregation, is either most severely tested or is really called upon to sustain us is in this moment of suffering, right? In this moment of pain and loss. As Latter-day Saints, we hear the words of Alma in our heads that we are willing to mourn with those who mourn and comfort those who stand in need of comfort.

You open your first episode in such a striking way. There's sort of this montage of voices that we hear overlapping, talking about the ways that they have struggled, the pain and the burdens that they're carrying. And the pace kind of picks up as you hear more and more of these human voices. We're seeing some sort of… abstract visuals on the screen, and then suddenly there's this abrupt cut to black.

And then you move into a kind of long form storytelling of two stories, right? Two very ordinary, but very heartbreaking stories. One of whom is Soren, the student you were just talking about who lives with a stutter. And then the other is a man named Douglas Young, who's a beekeeper who had lost his wife. And so you give us the context that everybody around us, you know, that opening scene with all the voices, everybody around us is carrying this burden. But then you choose to really go deep on these two stories and you sort of intercut them in these interesting ways. Why did you decide to give so much time to these two stories? And why did you decide to go with, you know, trials and losses and burdens that are so heavy for the one who carries it, but really are quite everyday, right? There's nothing especially extraordinary about what these two people experience. So tell me about those choices.

Russell: Just by way of clarification, Douglas is the one who has a diagnosis... but to your point really insightful to notice that. Mick, you'll notice, it's just audio. We're seeing elements of him, maybe, and things. But he opened up to us. He's Quaker. And some Quakers are Christian. Some are not Christian in the current tradition. Mick never really talked about that. But there is this idea of the society of friends.

We were sitting, we were eating, and Mick and I had both gone through the experience of a loved— a spouse who passed away from cancer. We had spent a lot of time with him. He’s a bell ringer, he does all of these things, we were eating dinner and we said something and I said, well, Mick, always, you're among friends and he said, yes, friends, because it's the society of friends. Then he told that story.

It had been that long, but he needed to trust, I guess, us with something that sacred. So this is a long way around to say there are two aspects, I think. One is the individual journey that a person encounters in life, in which it seems clear that our Father in heaven is trying to shape us into the image of our heavenly parents, that we are supposed to be ascending to something, becoming, not just getting back, not just going back to, because why leave in the first place? But we're supposed to be transformed in this process.

But I think there's also a community that he's trying to transform. The community transformation matters. And that happens together.

So the first part with all of that, the voices together, is sort of the scope, extent, vastness of human suffering. It's this x this many people x this often that voices are continually ascending for solace and help, that we can do something maybe to help as well in that process.

And then, so it's a little bit of Moses, which is here is the expanse of it all. I'm nothing. I never thought that before. And then God shows him that he's everything. That it's the particular after the general, that there is human suffering, lots of human suffering. And that community is going through transformation as well, that it's supposed to lift and change. And that's why Jesus didn't just come right back after the fall in the garden. The community had to grow. It had to learn as well. It had to advance and develop.

So, when we get to those individual stories, it's to say that each one of them also matters, not just collectively, but individually. And Douglas is different. I'm so glad you remembered him because, because Soren’s is a practical, almost emotional social experience. Douglas’s is a mystical experience. He has a bit of a vision. And that's exceptional, I think, at least in my experience. I think it's supposed to, I think we call them miracles because they don't happen all the time. It's usually in the everyday. What is it? Dean Duncan says that life is laundry. That's where we find it, in the everyday. But in Douglas, we do see that we are not to also discount the fact that there are still some miraculous, beautiful experiences that come straight from the Spirit or from God. He has that. He never clarifies. You'll notice this is really interesting, Rosalynde, that Douglas reference, because he never says, it was an impression or I felt it or I, but it's very concrete for him. And I don't know that he would care that much if you said, well, where did that happen in your mind or in your eyes? I think it's all the same for him at that point.

Welch: Yeah. Well, it brings to mind, I was lucky enough to spend some time in the ancient city of Assisi several years ago, where St. Francis of Assisi, of course, is from. And he, as a young man, had an incredible visionary experience where—but it was also very mundane—he was walking through the countryside and he happened across this little chapel that was falling into deep disrepair and he was moved to go inside and pray there. And as he prayed there, a voice came to him, the voice of the Lord that said, Francis, my son, repair my church, which as you see is falling down around you.

And he heard this instruction to “repair my church” come to him three times. And I love that he took that very literally and he took it upon himself to repair that little church, the little chapel of San Damiano, which still exists, now enclosed within a much larger cathedral. But of course, there were two meanings to that commandment. Yes, repair this church, repair this little chapel, and then go on to do a much greater work to renew my church from the inside, which he did, of course, through the foundation of his order, the Franciscan order.

And that's so resonant, I think, with the themes and the images that you are working with in Congregation. You're fortunate enough in the UK to be able to linger the camera on so many beautiful architectural exteriors, including many that are ancient and that are crumbling and that need to be repaired. In fact, you have a shot of a steeple covered in scaffolding and workers who are literally working to repair that church.

And we see both how we ourselves are repaired and renewed internally by the work of the Spirit when we go, bringing our broken selves to the foot of the cross and seek there solace from others. And then we also see kind of the larger work that we can do together to in fact repair the church, right? To revitalize the church, and to kind of bring a new life and a new spirit into this ancient practice of gathering on the Lord's Day and singing songs and partaking of his flesh and blood.

So I think St. Francis is very present through all of what you're doing.

Russell: Wow. You know, I'm a fan of St. Francis. I think, in fact, we went through an exhibit there. Also because it's a perfect reference, because he saw so much of Christ in the physical world, in the natural world, and encountered his, you know, what was it, Brother Bird or Sister Lamb or whatever, right? That they were siblings.

And there's a story. I think it's Chesterton's biography of St. Francis when he goes, it's a little drummer boy story, but he doesn't he goes in, he's supposed to bring a gift and he doesn't have anything. He's given everything, he gave his clothes away to kind of irritate his father. He doesn't have anything, but he can juggle, so he juggles. That's what he does before the leadership of the church, he juggles. And so whatever our little part is that we can bring to that repair, that beautiful imagery that you pick up on, that repair.

And repair, we often think, well, I'm steadying the ark. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about healing that is required all the time. so bring what little. If you juggle, then juggle. Yeah, exactly.

Welch: Then bring your juggling balls, yes. Well, Thomas, as we start to draw this conversation to a close. I know you're not a social scientist and you didn't undertake this project to make predictions or to get to the bottom sociologically, but still, you've spent a lot of time with believers, with hopeful believers, those who maybe don't believe as much as they want to yet, but still sense something there, and maybe those who have lost their faith as well.

So I'm wondering as we stand here in 2025 at this very interesting moment where it's not at all clear what the fortunes of traditional organized religion will be going forward. Based on all the hours that you have spent with congregants, what is your gut feeling?

Is there a renewal that's in the future?

Russell: Stephen Cook, when we interviewed him, said, “I don’t know that they're leaving religion as much as they're leaving organized religion.” This was a question that we asked in which we'd say, is there a difference between being spiritual and religious? And the people we spoke to, I think, particularly Jo Bailey Wells, she really had, I thought, hit it very clearly, and Timothy Radcliffe. This is why it matters to commit yourself to ritual and to religious worship and to the rigor sometimes that accompanies this commitment that we make to one another. So I think there might be.

If you ask me my guess, I would say that you'll see these patterns. I think continually you'll see a decline because the infrastructure isn't quite there yet. Leigh Winsbury described it. He said in the UK very often, because religion is so integrated into the scholastic experience, the educational experience, you're going to receive religious education at school. And that's the way it's always been.

But because of that, he said a lot of members of the congregation say, well, I'll let the vicar be in the parish doing the vicar things, and then I'll just show up on Sundays. Some of the more vibrant communities that we encountered, including Leigh Winsbury's, his is full all the time, and the Cooks, 'Campden, they're very active. I think what they're doing is finding a way, as Stephen Cook says, to be organized in an unorganized way. Because he said, you need organization. But you also kind of need to let people do the thing their way. And I think that's probably also a challenge for us as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We think, well, this is the method. This is how we do it. Everybody does it the same way. Well, different people do this differently. We have to be willing to accept, I think, that experience.

Welch: Well, lots of questions remain then about where we go from here. It's a question I think worth pointing out that's at the heart of our Book of Mormon as well, right? There's a big question at the heart of the Book of Mormon as to what—who Mormon and Moroni called the Gentiles—what Gentile culture, this kind of Western culture, what it will do in modernity, right? Whether it will choose discipleship in the way of Christ or whether it won't. So I think it's a big question that remains unanswered. It's a question that people like you and I can help to answer every single Sunday morning—and not just Sunday morning, right? Every single day of our lives when we choose to take up the cross and walk the path of Jesus as disciples of his.

I wonder, just to wrap up Tom, this podcast series is all about questions, the questions we should be asking. We've just talked about a big question facing religious people in the West right now.

I wonder what was the most powerful question that you asked in the making of Congregation.

Russell: That is such a good question, Rosalynde, because Dean would ask, Dean did many of the questions, most of the interviews. Dean Duncan is one of the faculty members who went. So Jeff Parkin, Dean Duncan, Courtney, is an adjunct professor, and then myself, and Jana, who is Jeff's wife and a marvelous artist, by the way, and painted. And we got shots of that and just sees the world beautifully. Jeff and Dean are brilliant, we took those eight, as you said, students along. I hope I'm getting the numbers right. Might have been more, but anyway.

And Dean had prepared these questions and often asked one that was a hard one. And it seems very simple. He asked, is there an order to the two great commandments? Is there significance in the order to the two great commandments? Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. And the answer that we got, which is a beautiful one, very often was, well, is there really any difference? Because in the other, you're going to see evidence of the answer to your first.

But there was one thing slightly missing that may be partly, I want to be really careful here, but may be part of the issue that they're facing, which is, there are sometimes that we do things not out of the abundance of our hearts, but sometimes we do things out of a sense of duty or commitment or covenant. I actually used to love those guys that would say, I did my home teaching on the very last day. And I was like, well, that's all right. Because I know why you did it because you're supposed to.

And so sometimes before we feel it, we do it. And also helps maybe protect us from doing what we think is going to be a charitable act and ends up actually being detrimental to the person. And so that was, I think, surprisingly, the hardest question for people to answer because I think the answer was often just to say, there's no difference or Jesus randomly chose that order.

But he says the second is like unto it. He puts them in an order. So, yeah, I don't know. I think as those congregations I talked about that are flourishing continue to say to the congregants, hey, can you help serve? Can you come and help this person with me? So the vicar isn't just doing all the vicaring things and the congregation gets involved. I think that that will be a key element in whether or not they fully rebound and people are kind of committed to that, is remembering that there's an expectation also, a divine expectation upon us, which puts that first commandment first.

Welch: Well, from your mouth to God's ears. That is a question that is worth asking. And Tom Russell, we're so grateful. Thank you for joining us today on the Maxwell Institute podcast.

Russell: Thank you, Rosalynde. What an honor and a privilege. I appreciate it.

Conclusion

That concludes my interview with Professor Tom Russell about his documentary series Congregation, which explores the vitality of Christian worship communities across the United Kingdom. We’re delighted to have him with us for the next couple of years, and I expect that you’ll be hearing and seeing more from him on Maxwell Institute channels.

If you enjoyed this conversation about faith, community, and the future of organized religion, please share it with others and subscribe to our podcast feed. You can follow us @BYUMaxwell on social media and sign up for our newsletter at mi.byu.edu to stay updated on Tom's work and other Maxwell Institute projects.

I'll be back soon with more conversations featuring our new Maxwell Institute fellows and their scholarship on faith, scripture, and the restored gospel. Thanks for listening.