Book of Mormon Studies Podcast: Mormon Text with Shon Hopkin

Rosalynde Welch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Maxwell Institute's Book of Mormon Studies podcast. My name is Rosalynde Welch. I'm the host of the podcast and I have a wonderful guest with me here today. I am joined by Dr. Shon Hopkin. Dr. Hopkin is a professor of ancient scripture in the Department of Ancient Scripture here at Brigham Young University. His area of expertise is the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Old Testament.

And he also has a very fascinating kind of secondary area of study, and that is medieval Iberian literature, which I find fascinating because my PhD was in early modern English literature, and I served my mission in Portugal. So, we're delighted to have you on the podcast with us today, Dr. Hopkin.

Shon Hopkin: I t's so good to be with you. And yeah, I served my mission in Northern Spain. So we were next door neighbors and that, that area of emphasis of, of academic focus is one that I love and that it, it's hard for me to find time to do research with these days, but we'll call it a love that tries to bubble up. And I'm constantly looking for ways for it to bubble up. The Hebrew Bible emphasis helps more in, as we're talking about Book of Mormon and religious topics. So yeah.

Welch: Absolutely. Well, it doesn't hurt to think about the Book of Mormon through the lens of literature as well. We've talked about that a lot over the course of this podcast series is the way that the Book of Mormon as a text lends itself to all sorts of types of analyses, including literary analysis. So maybe we will touch on that today. Today, our topic is the Book of Mormon. That is the internal Book of Mormon written by Mormon. Coming right after 4th Nephi and right before the Book of Ether. We're moving right on through the Book of Mormon. Here in this book, we're going to see a conclusion and an end to the primary narrative arc of the Book of Mormon as we see Nephite civilization come to a conclusion, come to a very sad and tragic end here.

But before we get there, Shon, help us understand what context we should have in mind as we approach this book in the Book of Mormon. How do we get from 4th Nephi to Mormon? It's kind of a rocky transition there. It's very different as a book. What context will help us to cross over?

Hopkin: Yeah, I think that's well said. It's shockingly different. Maybe that's maybe not too strong because as you'll recall, as everybody will recall in fourth Nephi, we've got this huge span of history and we're marching through it in sort of this typical historical narrative fashion that Mormon has where he gives us year counts and then a little bit of commentary, but you get these huge jumps and spanning hundreds of years of history in one book and one short book and then you sort of hit the brakes and come straight into this personal narrative style.

This shift towards a rejection of goodness, of holiness, and the teachings of Jesus, then it's like all of a sudden, you've had this sort of rapid movement, and then pause, and you're in the middle of it. It's like you stand up and look around, and now you're smack dab in the middle of it, and you pause there, and it's heavy, right? And his hope as he looks to the future, you start to get a greater sense of that being an important part of the way that he is navigating and managing the challenges of his modern-day society, modern day for him society.

Welch: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You're right, you really sense that as he works through the ups and downs--mostly downs, but there's an up or two in the book of Mormon--but as he walks through these decades of decline with his own people, you can feel how the locus of his faith and hope detaches from the present. And he even says at one point, I was without hope for my people.

And he relocates that hope and that faith in the promises of Christ for the restoration of the Lamanite remnant in the latter days. So here, the center of gravity really shifts over the course of this small book, book of Mormon.

Hopkin: Well, and I would add there is a lot of hope for the future and or, but he also, that the things he sees playing out in his society that he's going to point to similarities in modern society. He's wanting to give a very clear voice, a very clear prophetic sense, almost like an Isaiah style.

You have got to wake up and see what's going on. Cause I'm living in the middle of it. You're going to be living in the middle of it. Let's see, my current people haven't heard my voice. Will you be able to hear my voice?

And then let me add one other thought, Rosalynde. As he is very forward looking, the other thing that we get a sense of that is holding his grounding and helping him navigate, it comes very early. And I hope I'm not jumping the gun here, but he talks about right in chapter one, his very young age in his 15th year, he comes to taste and know of the goodness of Jesus for himself. And that, those are the two things that seem to ground him as he's working, is my sense of it.

Welch: Yeah, that's really wonderful. Yes, there's this very important analogy that shows up at the beginning, I think, of the Book of Mormon, the small plates, and then really comes back into focus here at the end of the large plates. And that analogy is between the situation of the Nephites and the history of the Nephites and the situation and history of the modern Gentiles.

Even though the primary audience for the Book of Mormon is the Lamanite remnant in the latter days, and this is something that Mormon makes very, very clear, it's very important for his Gentile audience not to tune out, right? There's an extremely important message for the Gentile audience as well and that is that you are on the same path as the Nephite people, and you are at a turning point in the latter days. Those of you who are reading this book, they say, you are at a turning point. And the history of the Nephite people, the tragic and sad ending of their people has a lesson for you.

So yes, as his focus shifts to the future, you're right. It's not all roses and rainbows. On the contrary, he's very aware of the precarious situation into which the Book of Mormon itself will emerge and the possible work, you know, all the tragedy that he witnesses, the really unspeakable, horrific events that he has the loyalty and the love to witness--that can all be redeemed in a sense, I think he feels, if the lessons of the Nephites can be grasped by not only the Lamanite remnant, but the Gentile readers of the Book of Mormon as well. Then those voices from the dust will have had their say in a way that is heard and is received and is efficacious. So, you're right, there's a real urgency and a real edge to his focus on the future.

Hopkin: Rosalynde, I love the way you articulated that. And if I could, a thought just came to my mind as we were discussing this, that I'm not sure I've ever put these two things in contact before. If we look backwards in Nephite history to a moment that Mormon puts right at the center of the record, which is the anti-Nephi-Lehi narrative and the Abish role, where you have right at the middle, this figure. Who is living in the midst of a society that doesn't understand God's goodness in the way that she does. And, but she hangs in, in hope, and she plays a pivotal role grasping people by the hand to lift them up, you know, and society is transformed in Christ, but with her efforts being a very important pivotal moment in that storyline.

And then as you talked about him being Lamanite focused, I've never really thought of the Mormon looking forwards, but as he's recording the story of Abish, just how poignant that story may have been for him and how much he longed for his role to maybe play out in a way that he saw Abish's role play out. I think he sees her, even though she's got a minor, you know, footprint, she's got a major impact and I wonder if he sees her as a real hero of the story. I think he does.

Welch: Yeah, oh, I agree with that. And this gets at something. We're going a little far afield, but I promise our listeners, we'll get back on track here in a minute. But I've been thinking about this recently, that the Book of Mormon actually records two stories of Lamanite redemption. And one takes place in the large plates, in kind of the real time of the Book of Mormon narrative. And that is, as you said, what begins with Abish in Alma 19. And then, continues and grows through Samuel the Lamanite and then kind of reaches its climax in the Book of Helaman. So, we see a conversion and a redemption and a beautiful flowering and growth of the Lamanite people in the Book of Mormon itself.

But there's also another Lamanite redemption that really is the focus of the small plates, and that is the prophesied latter-day redemption of the Lamanite remnant, that the Book of Mormon, of course, plays a central role in that process. That is what Nephi is focused on early. That's what Mormon and Moroni become focused on here at the end. But the way that those two parallel kind of stories of Lamanite redemption play together or may have connected in Mormon's own mind is kind of, it has been a question that has grabbed me this time through.

Welch: Let’s talk now in some detail about this book of Mormon itself. It is, um, nine chapters long. We have the voices of two primary prophets in it. Tell us a little bit, walk us through the structure of this internal book of Mormon.

Hopkin: So, this is a place where, and this is true throughout the Book of Mormon, but where the Chapter Divisions originally provided in the 1830 Book of Mormon are very helpful to show some patterns of what Mormon is trying to accomplish. And here's the fascinating thing. So, you get Chapter 1 in the 1830 edition is what we have as Chapters 1 through 3. Chapter 2 is going to be 4 through 5.

Chapter three is going to be six through seven. That's the end of Mormon's record. And then Moroni at the end of the internal book of Mormon is going to give us the last two chapters, which are eight and nine, and that's chapter four in the 1830. Well, so what you notice when you start looking at the way the arc goes in each of those chapters is there is a pattern that develops, and that is that Mormon is recounting his history in sort of this historical format that's become so customary for us with interjections about his own personal experience, we get first person stuff here that is it's really satisfying having gone this entire record and now here he is. But then it's like he uses the history each time at the end of each chapter to launch into lessons for the latter days and what he's seeing in the latter days.

And so, this plays into what we were just discussing, this sense that past history, that current history is going to be a launching point for the future becomes very clear. And so you see it at the end of chapter three, which is chapter one in the 1830, he pauses, and he actually says, right at the end there, he's going to say, let's look at...

Welch: Maybe chapter three verse 17, right around there.

Hopkin: Perfect. Thank you Rosalynde. She's the one who makes sure we get the text correctly. Thank you so much. Verse 17 therefore I write unto you Gentiles and also unto you house of Israel. So, there's he sort of launches into that and now go to the end of chapter five and let's look at verse twenty-two. I had to say that fast before Rosalynde could get it in so I can do my part here verse twenty-two and then right? How can you stand before the power of God? And so, you get this narrative launching forward. And then of course, all of what we have is chapter seven, which is the end of his chapter three is going to be to the latter-day house of Israel. And then interestingly, Moroni follows the same pattern in chapters eight through nine.

But and this may say something about Moroni as well, his historical portion is shorter. It's compact, there's less for him to say, and then the majority of it is last days. And so, I think that teases out some really fascinating things about the way they thought, about the way they saw the world, and about the way they want to use this record for purposes that launch beyond them.

Welch: Yeah, that's so helpful to see how he divides. And he has basically three kind of historical periods. The first kind of showing his initial work as the commander of the Nephite armies, an early period of extensive defeat, followed by a kind of tentative victory and a treaty that lasts for about 10 years of peace. The prideful, unrepentant Nephites then launch an offensive counter against the Lamanites. This seems to be the trigger for Mormon to resign from his post as commander of the Nephite armies. He says he stands as an idle witness for a while there. That kind of takes us through this first passage of the history of these years.

In the second passage, the wars and atrocities resume as the Nephite offensive continues, but the Nephites then experience a tremendous defeat and are forced to flee northward. At that point, Mormon feels compassion for his people and is led to resume command of the Nephite armies, although this time without hope that they really might see an ultimate victory. And he consolidates all his people into one giant stronghold.

And then finally in the last kind of stretch of history. We see the last battle at Cumorah, the final Nephite defeat and their destruction in battle. And then of course, Mormon's own lament over his fallen people. So that's kind of the, in large outlines, that's how he divides the history into these three separate periods. Yeah.

Hopkin: Love that. Thank you, Rosalynde. Yeah, I was enjoying listening to you track through that. And, you know, one of the questions that plays in here that you can try to track down is, okay, when is he, right? When's he doing the work? And there's been a lot of work that's been done on this. But a couple of spaces that we probably could pinpoint.

Hopkin: Right from the beginning, it's record oriented. Amaron, this figure, this prophetic figure who identifies Mormon as this person with great potential and designates him, really prepares him from that early age. When you're 24, so 14 years from now, you're going to go get the records, right? And then that happens in chapter one verses two through three.

And then you see him do that in chapter two verses 17 through 18. He goes to get the records and then he does some work at that point. He says, upon, let's see. He says, behold, in verse 17, “I had gone according to the word of Amaron and taken the plates of Nephi and did make a record according to the words of Amaron.” So, he appears to be doing some work there.

“And upon the plates of Nephi, did I make a full account of all the wickedness and abominations, but upon these plates I did forbear.” And so, people have tried to tease out, OK, when what's his what's his historical record on the plates of Nephi that's going to be this broader thing that this is different than what we have here with these plates of this record, which is his abridgment and a shorter version of history. What's his personal record? What's his historical abridgment? You know, all of these questions

And then the other spot that plays in he's going, he's already going to be 65, older than 65, is the way that this tracks out in the timeline and chapter five verse nine that “a knowledge of these things must come into the remnant of these people also unto the Gentiles,” who the Lord said should scatter his people and this people should be counted as naught therefore I write a small abridgment, Daring not to give a full account to the things which I have seen now.” Many who have sort of zeroed in think this is where he's doing the primary work on what we understand is the book of Mormon. Rosalynde, I don't know if you have anything to add to that those thoughts

Welch: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a real question because his life seemed so chaotic and so full. It's hard to imagine that he had the time required to do the extensive and meticulous archival work that he must have done. We'll talk a little bit more about who Mormon was soon, and I'm sure we'll touch on this then, but he was a meticulous historian, and it was clear that he had a deep and detailed engagement with the primary sources that he's using. He's not just kind of doing this off the top of his head from memory. So, when did he have the time to be deeply buried and immersed in these records and pull it out? I think you're right. You've pointed to sort of the primary textual places where we can make inferences. It seems like perhaps during that 10-year hiatus in the war, where there was kind of a period of peace, he may have gotten started there.

And then of course, during the years of his resignation, he probably would have gotten deeply into this work because by the end of his life, he has passed it on to his son. He's buried all the rest of the records that he's worked with in this trove, and he's passed on what we now have as the Book of Mormon or his abridgment to his son Moroni. So somewhere in there, all this remarkable work got done.

I worked for many years as an independent scholar where I worked out of my home with my children around me and working between drop-offs and pickups. Sometimes I would feel a little sorry for myself, but I've got nothing to complain about thinking about Mormon who worked between offensive battles, right? Defensive battles and moving his people and literally in a place of existential threat to his own survival and his people's survival.

Hopkin: That sounds very similar to a mom's experience raising young children, right?

Welch: There were those days. Yeah. Great. Well, that helps us, I think, to understand what we've got in these nine chapters of the Book of Mormon. Let's now zero in on who Mormon was.

The more that I study the Book of Mormon--you know, we often start out, we know the character of Nephi very well because we start out in 1st Nephi and because I think the character of Nephi, we see him so vividly in these various episodes that are narrated in 1st Nephi. So, we come to know Nephi very well.

But the more that I read the Book of Mormon, the more I come to know and appreciate who Mormon was. This is the only place where we see him fully step out from behind the curtain. But even in this book of Mormon, I think he's very modest in certain ways, right? He doesn't really show us himself as the hero or he doesn't give us sort of specific episodes as he interacts with other people. So, we still must infer a lot about who he is from the words that he's put on the page. So, help us understand Mormon, Moroni, and the personalities and characters who really populate this book.

Hopkin: Yeah, so thank you. I'm going to go someplace maybe a little bit surprising. One of my colleagues pointed this out to me years ago, and it has stuck with me. There are moments in the narrative earlier, before the internal Book of Mormon, where Mormon pokes through. And it's not just the, and thus we see. But let me read one of these, an example of one of these, in Alma 32, verse 4, that I think is nice moment to help us get maybe a little bit into Mormon psyche or the way he views the world the way he views this project.

So, it says he's talking about Alma and him, Alma's with the Zoramites. And he says “now as Alma was teaching and speaking unto the people upon the hill Oneida There came a great multitude unto him” -- and then it's this little phrase right here--” Who were those of whom we have been speaking.”

And then that phrase, I'll come back to it, “of whom were poor in heart because their poverty as to things in the world.” So that little phrase, who were those of whom we have been speaking? Well, Mormon, I assume isn't talking to anyone, right? Who is this we? I think we is

Us and I think he is envisioning a conversation With us, right, and maybe I’m misinterpreting maybe that goes too far but to me, I think you get a little bit of this wise, almost a grandpa kind of a figure, you know who has seen so much and is trying to embed in this record things that he does for people that he loves deeply, that he feels very connected to. He feels linked to us as though we were in actual conversation. And this project is a “we” project for him. And then, isn't that nice? That possibility anyway is nice. And then that can maybe lead us back into the text that we're focusing on.

You get this comment early on when Amaron comes to him, he calls him sober. And so that's going to be someone who is moderate or temperate, if we're sort of taking 1830 kind of English as our guide here, we could debate that, right? But sort of moderate, temperate, thoughtful, right? And quick to observe and church leaders have sort of keyed in on that, quick to observe and how important it is to be and what we can see about Mormon being someone who pays attention. And then you see that attention playing out. I think of him as the one who gives us the spectacular chapter in Moroni 7 about the light of Christ, about goodness, about knowledge of goodness and truth, and then about the love of Christ.

Hopkin: Then the way his voice comes through strongly, but lovingly in Moroni 8 as well. This is someone who pays attention to people, who pays, but so he's got this brilliant macro understanding of the society in a general kind of a way. And to me, he also has this very personalized, personal understanding that allows him to paint with very clear tones, a figure like Abish, right? And unheard one right to put her into the text so that she sings as well. So now I've waxed a little bit sort of more poetic than detailed. So Rosalynde you can help us make sure we get what we need here

Welch: Yeah, I absolutely love that. His quickness to observe, I think that is kind of the central trait. And certainly, the trait for which I am most grateful because I think it's what enabled him to create the masterful portraits and historical narrative that he did in the Book of Mormon. I would maybe summarize that all under the heading of witness. Mormon was a witness. He was called to be a witness.

A witness is anything but a passive role. I can't imagine anything more demanding emotionally and spiritually and yes, physically and socially than being called to watch the destruction of the people whom you love. I think what allows him to get through that is something else that he's also witnessed. And you alluded to this earlier, right? Which is that he has had some kind of very personal encounter with Jesus. He knows his Lord. And it was that early kind of witness of Christ, I think, that gives him the strength to carry on through witnessing the horrific events that unfold in front of him. And to do so in a way that doesn't make him cynical, right?

I think we have to agree, he's a pessimist about human nature. And I identify with him because in some ways I am as well. He understands what he calls the unsteadiness of humanity, how quick we are to forget the goodness of God and how quick we are to be unfaithful to our covenant relationship with the Lord. Yet this kind of sober, perhaps even, it may even lead him at times toward a kind of melancholy--it doesn't lead him to cynicism. And so although he loses hope in the possibility of redemption for his own people, he does not become cynical about the messianic prophecies, about the power of Christ in our lives, and about the goodness of God. In fact, that seems to give him extra impetus to figure out how it is that people who are living through the worst possible circumstances can maintain that connection to God and can continue to live in faith, hope, and love. As you pointed out, this is the great theme of his epic sermon that we'll see in Moroni 7. And it seems to be, his answer seems to be, it's a gift of God. It's a gift of God. If we are to live with faith, hope, and love through the darkest of all possible timelines, we can only do that, not through any kind of internal resources, but through our connection to God, through mighty prayer, pray to God that he will put the pure love of Christ in your hearts. So I think that wisdom comes through his courage to stay attentive, to stay a witness, to pay attention, no matter what it is that he is called to see.

Hopkin: Yeah, I love that Rosalynde. Could I just add this idea? I think you're spot on that he is not a cynic in the sense of, you know, he believes that things, that the good will win out, so to speak, really what he's doing is he is investing his life energy--his life force you might say--into this project that he views this book. This book can change the course of the river It can change the course of history it can be as it shines the message of Christ a servant in God's hands to alter the course of things and so he's pouring himself into it as a labor of hope and love. This is a general who's been engaged in war scenes his entire life. He's a books guy. He's a literature guy. And he believes in the power of literature, the power of the word to change lives, to convince hearts. I love the Prophet Mormon. I love what I learn of who he is as I sort of tease out some of these things in his record and as I listen to you tease it out.

Welch: Yeah, I think that's exactly right and worth underscoring that in addition to his abundant spiritual gifts, his abundant social gifts, right? He has, he is prodigiously gifted intellectually. The work of the Book of Mormon, the more that you dive into it, I think you just have to stand in awe of what he accomplished. He's more than just an editor and abridger. It's clear that his soul truly delights in the Nephite prophetic tradition.

I think it's Nephi who says, you know, over and over again, my soul delights in the words of Isaiah. I think Mormon’s soul delights in the words of the Nephite prophets. This comes from, this has to be motivated by love. I think a work of the scale could only be motivated by intense love and by his prodigious commitment and intellectual gifts here.

He carries the language of the Nephite prophets in his mind. On many occasions he echoes word for word earlier prophets. He shows incredible attention to sources, to contexts, to dates and facts. He's a little bit more modern in his approach to historiography, I think, than either Nephi or Moroni are.

Welch: He handles these records with great attention to detail and in a way that ultimately, I think really builds confidence. I think we feel confident in the hands of Mormon because we come to trust him. We come to trust his spiritual vision, we come to trust his ability to accurately edit and string together these many primary sources. And in the end that allows us to then open our hearts to the message of Jesus Christ and to respond to his invitation to come to Christ because we trust who he is as a disciple and as a historian.

Hopkin: Well, let me add a thought here to that nice description of him as a historian. And he shows so much evidence. He builds trust by leaving some warts in right by being an honest historian by linking things together and not smoothing it all out. But he does continually theologically say, “and thus we see” --he helps guide us through how we can interpret those historical details. But let me add just a sort of a personal thought I have.

I have a barber--I don't need him very often, but I'm going to see him this afternoon--who I love, and he said something really profound to me once or it struck me. He said, you know, I have a hard time at church. I'm not book smart, and I don't understand a lot of what said but I am hand smart and I hope that God honors hand smart, and I imagine that a lot of people who listen to this podcast are book people, we love books, right. And I just want to also point out, Mormon is also the kind of person who “hand smart” people can really love. So interestingly, so he does all of this with literary genius. Without ever getting sort of this flowery type of literary, you know, grandeur. Moroni seems more drawn to that kind of sort of beautiful language kind of an approach. Mormon uses beautiful language, but it's serviceable always, right? He’s practical. This is someone who knows how to live life in wise ways, how to use his hands and how to use his mind in the service of God. So, he brings those things together I think in ways that are pretty fascinating to me.

Welch: Yeah, I think you're spot on. That really rings true to me as I think about who he is as I've come to know him. And it's a nice transition to think a little bit about Moroni, whom we also see in these final chapters. And as you pointed out earlier, there's a real contrast. The tone changes right away. Can we get a little sense for who Moroni is?

Hopkin: He’s clearly trained well, literarily, right? So, he knows the records. In fact, there, there's some evidence that he has more time with the small plates of Nephi and that he pulls them in, in ways that were less possible for his father. Maybe his father's a little more rush. Maybe as you've indicated, he gets those small plates towards the end. But one of the things that Grant Hardy and others have mentioned is how he weaves in ancient prophets constantly like you've got this sort of constant in and out and interweaving of previous texts.

Mormon also is going to use allusion regularly, but more sparingly I would say than Moroni does and Moroni loves Relying on past voices to create his message.

Welsh: Yeah, yeah, no, that's very true. As isolated as Mormon was, he did still have a community. And he probably even had some people to worship with, right? It was a dwindling band of Nephites who maintained faith in Christ and who were faithful to the commandments and their covenants to the end, but he probably had a small community of brethren and sisters to worship with. Moroni, it seemed as though he had nobody, right? He had no community, he had no family, he had no church community. So really, it was these prophetic voices from the dust that were his community, that were his communion. It was with them that he conversed, and we see how beautifully conversant he is in their writings in the way that he continually, as you said, intertextually brings their words into his context. Moroni is a master in his own right, no doubt.

Hopkin: He is. The power of this, I will not deny the Christ. I wander whithersoever I may alone. He's got to protect his life. But all he had to do, you might say, to have companionship was to move away from his core commitments. And he chose his core commitments with courage, with strength, with valor. And so, it's nice to see the prophetic voices in the Book of Mormon have different personalities. And they do. President Nelson has a different personality than President Monson or President Hinckley had. And it's beautiful to see Moroni have a different personality than his dad Mormon. They are both incredible models of what Christ-like, disciple living can look like, that each of us with our own insecurities and hopes and courage etc. can sort of gain glean lessons from.

Welch: Yeah, what a powerful point. I had never really thought about it in those terms, Shon, but you're exactly right. You know, Moroni's isolation wasn't inevitable, and it wasn't forced on him. It was because he chose to be faithful to the commission that was given to him. He could have given it all up and gone to find people and context and community there, but he didn't.

He chose to be faithful and courageous and to do what he knew needed to be done for our sake. What a powerful point. Well let's talk now about one of my favorite parts always in these conversations and that is what the text of the Book of Mormon is like. What are some of the literary forms and features that we encounter here as we read through these nine chapters?

Hopkin: So, I just have a couple of things to say. One, if we're ready to go to it, is this beautiful. Poignant tragic lament and I do think we should indicate that in so many ways Mormon like Nephi before him is a tragic figure right and Nephi once he sees that vision of the downfall of his people you can almost sense his sort of demeanor change right his view of reality and it's not that he's hopeless now, it's just that there's difficult things and he is seeing them and he's aware of them and he still trusts in his Jesus. And we see that very much with Mormon. But all this beautiful lament, I don't know if there's much more that is tragically beautiful in this way. Maybe we could talk about a different book of Restoration Scripture, the book of Moses and Enoch and his weeping over the sorrows of the sinfulness of the world. But it'd probably be worth reading a little bit.

Welch: So, this is Mormon chapter six, right about verse 16. And my soul was rent with anguish because of the slain of my people. And I cried, oh ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord? Oh, ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus who stood with open arms to receive you. Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss. O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen? But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return. Ah!”

Hopkin: Oh, my goodness, it makes me emotional listening to you read it. Um, so forgive me for that. Uh, the, the family relationships that he highlights here in the short little segment, um, and, and you said it so well, just a moment ago that he, these are people who I'm sure have wounded him and his family who have disappointed him over and over and over again, who have been unkind to him, who have ignored him and stepped on his offering, and he loves them, and his heart is rent with anguish, not in a condemnatory kind of a way, but because he loves them. And wow, this is beautiful after a life of war that he can evoke these kinds of sentiments in his writings. I just find this deeply moving literature.

Welch: Yeah. Well, I agree with you very much that the literary lens of tragedy is an important one as we read this book. And I'm not an expert in tragedy. As I was thinking about this episode, I was thinking of going and brushing up a little bit on how that genre really works. And maybe we have listeners out there who know better than I. But it seems like there's a question that is raised in the book, in the minds of readers. Tragedy kind of famously unfolds as the hero or the protagonist has a tragic flaw. And you see sort of the ramifications of that tragic flaw go outward in these kind of rippling circles that move out into the community. And oftentimes there's this collateral damage that happens as well as you see the downfall of the tragic hero.

In this case, it's the Nephite people themselves, right, who are this kind of tragic hero. And I think Mormon has done a lot of work to show us what their tragic flaw was. It's a theme throughout the large plates that the Nephites are unsteady. They're unsteady in their covenants. By contrast, the Lamanites, he says, once they come to Christ, they are steady, and they remain faithful to those covenants. But the Nephites are not, they're easily distracted, and their attention is almost always drawn away by riches and status. That seems to be the Achilles heel of the Nephite people, is that they are attracted by wealth, by status, and by kind of intra-Nephite games that they play to find power and wealth and prestige within their own society. So, we see kind of with these broadening ramifications, how that tragic flaw expands outward and outward. Oftentimes in tragedy, also we see a kind of supernatural intervention where the tragic hero is kind of punished by the gods for his evil doing. I think this is where Moroni, I'm sorry, this is where Mormon differs a little bit, maybe from this classical conception of tragedy.

Welch: Of course, he has a strong sense that God is present in the world and that he intervenes and that he acts with power, especially to give his gifts to those who ask for them. But he's very clear that the Nephite tragedy is brought on by themselves, right? He says here, it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished. This is in Mormon chapter 4 verse 5, the wicked bring about their own downfall by creating enemies, right? By creating enemies, by having a warlike and violent orientation in the world, they create the enemies, the wicked, who then will bring about their own downfall. So, he's very clear that this is not a kind of divine punishment. This is a tragedy that in some ways might have been avoidable had the Nephite people made different choices at key places.

But I think, again, as we've alluded to, he wants us to see both kind of the inertia or the momentum that's carrying the Nephites toward their demise, but he also wants us as Latter-day readers to see places where it could have been different. Because that's a big question in the Book of Mormon, right? Is what is going to happen to Latter-day Gentile society? We know God's promises for the Lamanite remnant, right? We know that they will be gathered. What will happen to Gentile culture? Will the Gentiles repent or not? It seems to me that's a big open question in the Book of Mormon. Will Gentiles choose to number themselves with the covenant people or not? And I think Mormon wants us to see here where the tragic end of the Nephites might have been avoided, where the off ramps were so that we can internalize that knowledge for ourselves in our own time.

Hopkin: So that's excellent. Let me add another piece here. And that is, if we sort of back out and look at it on more of a macro sort of salvation history kind of a level, and you were doing some of that, of course, it is interesting, at least in the Latter-day Saint understanding and conception of ancient scripture. You have the Hebrew Bible or the Old Testament that we would see leading to, and I think it's a Christian view of a cessation or a diminishing of the gifts. So it's a tragic story to a certain degree. And then the New Testament we see playing out in similar ways, right? Where there is this beautiful thing and certainly with full appreciation for the full range of history that sometimes we don't have. There's goodness over the course of history and faith in God. But at least as those texts play out, and as we understand them, sort of this diminishing of those spiritual gifts there towards the end of the New Testament, those warnings of those times coming. And Book of Mormon, same. So, as I heard James Dobson sort of describe literature in this way, broken literature, sort of tragedy, broken literature, broken literature, pointing then to this hope in the latter days, finally the story will be made whole and complete in Christ and right there embedded in the name of our church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is this belief, this hope Christ will return, and the story will have a triumphant conclusion and you see that sort of playing in those ancient scriptures leading to the future, the present and the future.

And the Book of Mormon, then, of course, one of its goals is to make sure that that's how we read the Bible as well as pointing to there is a God who lives and who loves his children, all of his children, and has a plan for them. And he loves you. Right. And he still exists and speaks today. So, it's not just a battle of good versus evil. It's loving the good and walking towards the good that will allow those things to blossom in us.

Welch: Yes. Yeah, good point, excellent point that, yeah, part of our challenge in these times, in times of darkness is to recognize what is good and to know that it comes from Christ. Well, Shawn, we've already moved into a wonderfully rich discussion of the themes here in the book of Mormon. Were there any other themes that you wanted to really draw attention to and point out to our listeners?

Hopkin: So, we've covered a lot of what I wanted to discuss. I do want to mention, and again, I'm going to take us outside of the internal book of Mormon to another text that is beautiful and poignant to me. And that is this moment when Mormon is rhapsodizing on the waters of Mormon, right? Which are where his name, we would assume, comes from, from the waters of Mormon. And let me just read this from Mosiah 18, verse 30. He's talking about Alma--we often call him Alma the Elder--has organized a church. He's baptized people, right? And this is the first time we see baptism occurring in the text. And so, they've got this community, what we would think of as a church community.

He’s just thrilled with this. “Now it came to pass all this was done in Mormon Yay by the waters of Mormon in the forest that was near the waters of Mormon the place of Mormon the waters of Mormon the Forest of Mormon how beautiful are they to the eyes of them who there came to the knowledge of their Redeemer? Yay, and how blessed are they for they shall sing to his praise forever.”

And so, this idea of Mormon as someone who is at a young age quick to observe, who comes to know the goodness of Jesus, and then who longs for and envisions communities flowing out of covenantal connection with God that unites a community. You see him doing this in 4th Nephi and then bemoaning its loss in 4th Nephi. How good this can be. And that's what he wants. That's what he was named, it appears, after that timeframe, after that event.

And he longs for that, and he longs for that for us. He talks about all good things come from Christ and we can find them, and we can rejoice in them and we can recognize them when they come.

Welch: Yeah, no, I think that's really, important to note. And I think it goes back to this question of how it is that Mormon could avoid cynicism and paralyzing despair. Right, he managed to kind of walk this knife edge of never once becoming kind of Pollyanna-ish or turning away from ignoring the realities of the world in which he lived and the world that was to come.

And yet somehow it never extinguished the love of Christ that he had burning in his heart. And I think his ability and his concerted, deliberate effort to look for what is good, whether he finds that in the community of brethren and sisters, as it dwindles, I imagine he continues to find what solace he can there, or whether he then turns directly to his relationship to the Savior and depends on that as his connection and his channel to grace in his life.

It connects, I think, to something that we've circled around, and I've talked about several times, but I just kind of wanted to put a point on it here. And that is this question of widespread societal sorrow and despair. I'm subject to this myself. Just the other day--I can't remember how I got on this train of thought, but I think as usual, I was thinking about my children, my older adult children. I was kind of thinking about their future and thinking maybe one day I'll be a grandmother and you know, what will it take in their lives for them to find their partners and to have children and that led me to think about the state of our society and I kind of fell into this very pessimistic kind of frame of mind like is there anything in our world that is getting better or is absolutely everything getting worse?

Luckily, I was talking to a friend about it later in the day, and she told me off the ledge and said, there's a lot that's getting better in our world, and there's a lot that we can point to. Nevertheless, I think a sense of widespread despair and sorrow is common in developed societies all over the world. The Book of Mormon speaks so powerfully to that. It shows us as bad as it can get.

Welch: And then I think it asks us to make a decision. Are we going to be like Mormon who can faithfully witness that darkness and then be led to repentance? Or instead, will it harden our hearts and lead us to a kind of spiraling cycle of further wickedness, nihilism, and despair? I think I--those two options are always available to us, I think, as individuals. And as individuals, of course, we influence those around us. And so, we, I think we can have a positive impact on our own social circles. Starting small, but those ripples go outward where we can model a way of faithfully witnessing darkness, but choosing repentance, faithfully choosing repentance. That's a path that's available to us.

Moroni, I think as we get to chapters eight and nine, Moroni has a strong sense of this. And I think he has a strong sense for how difficult it will be to make that choice, for us to choose faith and to choose hope and to choose love in the midst of darkness. He does not mince words talking about the sorry state of the kind of gentile culture into which the Book of Mormon will emerge, characterized by corruption, by selfishness, by greed and exclusion, and most of all, by a kind of closed off orientation to God, simply a lack of faith, a lack of faith that God is active in the world, that he's aware of us, and that his gifts are available to us.

He's very clear in letting us know. If you think that God is absent from the world, that's because you haven't asked. You haven't asked. And it's clear, he says--and I think this is a theme that I'd want to highlight as well--God's presence in the world is everywhere evident if you open your eyes to it in the gift of creation. Creation itself is the greatest of all divine miracles.

Hopkin: There is something very powerful and trustworthy about someone who can be honest, who can be real about what is going on. And Moroni and Mormon are eminently trustworthy in that way. But there's something not very inspiring about those who then descend into pessimistic, you know, a lack of any hope. And they--they refuse to do that as you've said over and over. And so, one of the things that I see, this is just me now thinking again about the figure of Mormon and what he portrays. The way that I think of who Christ is in my life is the one who descends through all things and is open and honest about pain, about sorrow, about wounds, about the challenges of mortality, about the things that we do to ourselves and to each other as human beings, as God's creations, and then imbues it all. He stays centered and pure and full of power so that he can turn those things for those who turn to him into lessons and moments that can lead to redemption and can redeem the challenges and the wounds and the pain of history. And so, he is not ignorant of just how dark life can be. In fact, he is the least ignorant about those things and yet eternally full of hope.

Welch: A powerful point. I'd never quite put it together in that way, but not only is Christ the source of the hope and the faith and the love that allows Mormon to walk through this time, but he's also his model and his exemplar. Christ himself, nobody has come in closer contact with the depravity and the pain and the suffering and the woundedness that results from sin. And yet nobody else has shown greater faithfulness in the face of that and an unending determination to overcome evil with good. That's how Mormon learned how to do it, was by knowing his Savior. That's beautiful. Shon, this has been such a fantastic discussion. You've really opened my eyes to lots of things in this wonderful book of Mormon. It's such a treasure, such a treasure.

Hopkin: I like that.

Welch: I always end these conversations by sort of like trading our favorite baseball cards, sharing with each other a favorite passage from the book that we're looking at. So I'm going to go first today and I'm going to share with you a passage. It's hard to call it a favorite because it's hard. This is a moment, it's in Mormon chapter 8. This is a moment where Moroni is acting as a classic Old Testament prophet, and he is calling us out. He sees our sins. He sees how we need to repent. And he does not mince words.

The reason why it's so valuable to me, I think, is because this is, I think, where the Book of Mormon can really add value for us in our lives. Scripture is really a conversation between the present and the past. We are privileged to have this window into the minds and souls and hearts of these ancient men and women who spoke by the power of God through the work and faithfulness of generations of caretakers. Miraculously, we have those words in front of us today. We can read them, and we can get into the minds and the hearts of an ancient lover of Christ. And so, it's a conversation and inevitably we're going to have different perspectives.

It's easy, I think, to read the Book of Mormon with a kind of presentism lens. We know that the Lord works line upon line, precept upon precept. There are things that we understand about the gospel. As those you and I privileged to be members of the Restoration, to know the revelations of Joseph Smith, we have a certain perspective. So, we can be quick to see, and I don't think that's always inappropriate, to see where the mindsets and the perspectives of the writers and characters in the Book of Mormon can be limited, and we're fortunate to know better and have the blessings of the restoration.

Conversely though, there are places where the ancient minds saw more clearly than we do. And there are places where we have it wrong, and they had it right. And if we are willing to “condemn not” the voices of the Book of Mormon and really listen to what they have to say about us and our day, it can be an incredibly valuable source of perspective.

I think about this all the time, you know, especially with my kids. How can we break out of our worldview when it's everywhere around us? How can I help them break out of it and see it from the outside? One of the ways we can do that is by reading ancient voices who had a different worldview and thus can see it differently. So, with that long preface, I am going to read Mormon chapter eight, and I think I'm going to start right around verse 34. Okay?

“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things, that is the Book of Mormon, shall come forth among you. Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know you’re doing. And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts. And there are no save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying and strifes and malice and persecutions and all manner of iniquities.

“And your churches, yea, even everyone, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts. For behold, ye do love money and your substance and your fine apparel and the adorning of your churches more than ye love the poor and the needy and the sick and the afflicted. Oh, ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers who sell yourselves for that which will canker. Why have you polluted the Holy Church of God? Why are you ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do you not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies because of the praise of the world? Why do you adorn yourselves with that which hath no life?

Welch: “And yet suffer the hungry and the needy and the naked and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you and notice them not.”

I value those words so much for Moroni's ability from outside our own worldview, from outside our own status games of wealth and of appearance to be able to diagnose what ails us, what ails me. I really think that kind of call out can only come from prophets. Our latter-day prophets have that kind of perspective and ancient prophets who saw our day have that perspective as well. Doesn't always feel good to hear that. Doesn't always feel good to be condemned. But really, there's nothing of greater value than something that can break through the brass ceiling that seals me into my worldview, that skews my perspective, that can give me that breath of fresh air and help me to see myself for who I am so that I can be led to repentance.

So for that, I think, I thank Moroni for those bracing and difficult words about me and about our day.

Hopkin: Well, and you said it doesn't always feel good and I agree and at the same time I think you would agree and there is something that feels so good about when you zero in and you see clearly and you can pierce through some of the fog and you recognize, oh, I need to change and I've made my I've caused some of these things and I don't mean in sort of a self-condemnatory kind of way but just there's truth, and I can recognize it and I can go after it, that feels so sweet and beautiful, even with the pain that is connected to it. And my sense anyway is that in my efforts to recognize truth as it applies to me, that when there is a sweetness to it, then I'm sort of on the wrong path. It hurts, but it hurts sweetly. You know, there's a beauty to it that rings true. And as you were reading those, I don't know if I've ever really paid as close attention as I could or should have to just how much they apply to me. Oh, here's where he's condemning the Gentiles and got it, you know, but no, he's trying to help me, right? Pierce through those things. Thank you.

Welch: Well, what have you got for us, Shon?

Hopkin: All right, well, so I'm going to go just a chapter before to Mormon chapter seven. And so this is Mormon's final statement. And I want to, again, I'm going to start with this little phrase from Mormon chapter one. Uh, let's see, making sure that I can find it where he talks about coming to know the goodness of Jesus. I had it in my sights and now it is.

Slipping away from me. Thank you once again. “And I being 15 years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind therefore I was visited of the Lord and Tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus.” When I was serving as bishop in my family ward It was often the young women who were on their game enough the young men on their game as well, but you know just in slightly different ways, but who I would hear a similar narrative where they would talk about reciting, we are daughters of heavenly parents who love us. And I don't have it memorized, sorry. And that it was just words. And then for those who really did seem grounded, something changed where they tasted of the goodness of Jesus and those words became alive to them. And they saw themselves differently. And so that he has this moment early on.

And then notice how it shows up here and I find powerful how it shows up in chapter seven as he's calling out to us. So, chapter seven verses four and five. “Know ye” --and he's telling you did it just so beautifully well there in chapter eight talking to me right? He's talking to our time our polarized angry, bittered combative time. And I've got President Nelson's talk about being peacemakers ringing in my ears. The way you talked about prophets piercing through the fog. “Know ye that ye must lay down your weapons of war and delight no more in the shedding of blood.” This is a man of war, so to speak, right? “Know ye must lay down your weapons of war.

And delight no more in the shedding of blood. Take them not again, save it be God shall command you. Know ye that you must come to the knowledge of your fathers,” sounding like the title page, right? We see where Moroni was, what he's working with as he constructed the title page. “Know ye that you must come to the knowledge of your fathers, repent of all your sins and iniquities.” And here it is: “believe in Jesus. Believe in Jesus Christ that he is the son of God, that he was slain by the Jews and by the power of the father he hath risen again.

Whereby he hath gained the victory over the grave and in him as the sting of death swallowed up.” So, and this is maybe going a little bit further than Mormon's original intent, I don't know, but there are so many deaths in our lives as we have hopes and expectations that turn out differently than we might have thought as something goes awry in our career or in a relationship or in a future anticipated goal. And I think in Christ who understands the sting of those deaths. And then it's swallowed up. So, like someone running a race and it hurts. I'm not a real I ran more earlier in life. I should get back to it. But it hurts. But when you're victorious, that doesn't matter. It's all part of this race. And he's promising that.

Hopkin: Whatever those stings are that we feel deeply in our lives, they will be swallowed up in Christ. And this from the man who says, at a young age, I knew of the goodness of Jesus. And I trust Mormon's voice. I also trust Moroni's voice as you were just sort of testifying just a moment ago. I trust these voices to lead me towards that God who saves and who loves and who redeems. So, I love seeing that here in his final words.

Welch: I think that invitation and that testimony that in Christ, the sting of death is swallowed up. In Christ, we have life. In Christ, we have love and hope and faith. I think that is the perfect place to end our conversation today. Thank you so much for joining us on the Maxwell Institute Book of Mormon Studies podcast.